How popular was "Space Seed" before ST2 came out?

[Amasov]

I was thinking about this. I was born a year after ST2 was released. That movie seemed to popularize the original episode in which Khan first appears, but before the movie was even made, was it a popular episode in the fan community? And even more so, when it was announced that the second movie was going to feature the return of Khan, was there general excitement?

Just curious.

 

[jayrath]

Oh, it was popular, but I don't think moreso than many other episodes. I guess the feeling right before STII came out was pretty much, "Huh?" (Ricardo by that time was mostly known from Fantasy Island.) There was curiousity and anticpiation, and a lot of hope that it would be better than TMP. So far as cast members go, however, I think we were all much more curious about this Saavik person. Vulcans were still pretty rare, and here was hot young Kirstie as not only that, but a new crew member as well.

But it was news of Spock's death that overwhelmed any other rumors at the time.

 

[Amasov]

It's one of the many standout episodes, but I always figured it was simply because of the popularity of ST2.

 

[AjaxSupportCrew]

I don't think it stood out any more or less than any of the original TOS episodes.
It just happened to be the one picked @ the time maybe ? ? ?

Others, in my opinion, were much better........

 

[Mysterion]

Space Seed might not have been an extremely popular epsidoe of TOS, but is was one that was best suited for a sequel.

 

[Amasov]

I don't think it stood out any more or less than any of the original TOS episodes.
It just happened to be the one picked @ the time maybe ? ? ?

Others, in my opinion, were much better........

For sure. Despite the fact that it gave us a very good followup movie, it was never one of my favorite episodes. Still isn't.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Coming to "Space Seed" years after "Wrath of Khan", I was disappointed. Not one of TOS' best, IMO.

I don't think "Wrath of Khan" would have been diminished at all if "Space Seed" never existed, and Khan's backstory with Kirk been a retroactive invention of the movie.

Ditto "Best of Both Worlds" and "Star Trek: First Contact" (although BoBW was excellent)

 

[Mysterion]

I don't think "Wrath of Khan" would have been diminished at all if "Space Seed" never existed, and Khan's backstory with Kirk been a retroactive invention of the movie.

Well, of course, without Space Seed there wouldn't have been (and couldn't have been) a Wrath of Khan. No Khan to have any wrath, don't you know.

So. Let's suppose for a moment that there was never a Space Seed. What might the second Star Trek movie have been about? Still a sequel to a TOS episode? A more direct follow-up to TMP? Something else entirely?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

"Space Seed" was a popular episode of TOS. It's one of the best.

 

[Christopher]

Well, for what it's worth, here's a quote on "Space Seed" from the original 1981 edition of Allan Asherman's The Star Trek Compendium, predating TWOK: "The character of Khan is one of the most magnetic ever to appear in a segment of Trek."

On the other hand, in David Gerrold's 1973 The World of Star Trek, "Space Seed" is barely mentioned. There are no shots from it in the photo insert section, and in his critical analysis of the series, where Gerrold discusses the best and worst episodes, he makes no mention of it either way. So it didn't stand out from the pack for him.

Similarly, it's not mentioned in 1975's Star Trek Lives, a nonfiction book about ST fandom. Lives contains an overview of the fanfiction of the time as well, and while there are mentions of fanfic followups to "Amok Time" and "The Enterprise Incident" and "Mirror, Mirror" and "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" and Finnegan from "Shore Leave," there's no indication that anyone was doing fanfiction following up on Khan. (For that matter, when fanfic authors Sondra Marshak & Myrna Culbreath went pro with The Price of the Phoenix in 1977, they created their own superman, Omne, when they could potentially have used Khan instead.)

I'm trying to remember what I thought of "Space Seed" back before '82. Hard to sort that out from the subsequent 30 years of memories. I don't recall whether it stood out for me more than other episodes, and if it did, it was probably mainly because of the Botany Bay FX shots. Actually, come to think of it, I recall a time -- even after TWOK -- when my memory of the specifics of the episode's story was somewhat vague.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I guess the feeling right before STII came out was pretty much, "Huh?" (Ricardo by that time was mostly known from Fantasy Island.) There was curiousity and anticpiation...

Yep. His Mr Rourke character was quite indelible at the time.

I think we were all much more curious about this Saavik person. Vulcans were still pretty rare, and here was hot young Kirstie as not only that, but a new crew member as well.

While "Starlog" magazine had been feeding us lots of news snippets, there had been no pics. I was at a fan-run SF media convention, here in Oz, in February 1982 and one of the members (with Japanese connections) had a hot-off-the-press issue of "Super Visual" magazine. Total Japanese text, so she had to translate captions for us, but these were the very first pics of the characters in Starfleet uniform from the upcoming ST II. Most of us, who'd read more than a few bad fanfic stories by that time, had the reaction that Saavik was a "typical Mary Sue".

For me, one of the most exciting things about seeing a preview of ST II, about two weeks before the gala premiere, was that the movie opens with Saavik's voice. Her deep, husky tones told us immediately "not a Mary Sue" - and then she swung around in the captain's chair just the same way as the Female Romulan Commander had done in TOS. Wow!

But it was news of Spock's death that overwhelmed any other rumors at the time.

Yep!

 

[Amasov]

These things have always been of interest to me. The fan community was unbelievably different back then. I never had the fortune to see Space Seed before seeing ST2, so everytime I view it, the film is in mind. As I said before, it's not one of my favorite episodes. I don't think it particularly stands out.

In fact, I had a friend who started to get into Star Trek. He saw the movies first and then watched TOS on Netflix. When he arrived at Space Seed, he was greatly anticipating what he hoped to be an AMAZING Episode because of the connection to the movie. In the end, while he liked it, he felt there were far better episodes and doesn't even count it as one of his favorites.

I'll agree with the assessment that it was the best candidate for a sequel, but as a stand alone episode, I'd give it a 6.5/7 out of 10. Nothing about it is particularly magnifying. Ricardo gives a splendid performance, but there are better episodes to choose from.

In fact, I always felt the movie sort of builds up the relationship with Kirk and Khan a little too much. Before I saw the episode and only had the movie to go on, it seemed to me that a lot more took place in their first meeting. While I'm not sure what I was expecting when I saw the episode, it seemed somewhat lightweight and wasn't as deep-rooted as it was made to seem.

But this is sort of why I always considered First Contact as TNG's version of The Wrath of Khan rather than Nemesis. There was a VERY strong connection between Picard and his time with the Borg. Kirk and Khan's fight in the original episode didn't really stand out against any of the other fights Kirk had with other villains in the series.

And even when Ricardo went on to play Rourke in Fantasy Island, were any of you watching it thinking, "Hey, it's Khan from Space Seed!" ?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

There being no internets back then, it's hard to judge the popularity of one episode vs any other among the general public. I can remember thinking it was one of the better episodes, and the whole Eugenics Wars thing was intriguing and made me wonder if there was more to the story - that second quality wasn't all that common among even the good TOS episodes.

Maybe COTEOF could have used some follow-up (alternate timeline where Joan Collins lives and the Nazis win!) and Amok Time made me interested in more on Vulcan culture, but TOS was really more about self-contained stories. The Trouble with Tribbles, The Naked Time and The Enemy Within really didn't cry out for a sequel.

 

[Maurice]

The ONLY compelling things in Space Seed are seeing the old spaceship and Ricardo's performance. De Kelley is also fine in it. The rest is rather eh.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The idea that the TOS gang knew all about some huge historical event that was in our future really struck me as interesting. Granted I was young and that was probably the first time I'd encountered the sci fi idea of "future history." But you could do a whole TV series just on the Eugenics Wars (updated for genetic engineering of course, in lieu of actual "eugenics.") That was a rare quality in TOS episodes. Balance of Terror and of course Assignment: Earth are also like that.

 

[Anwar]

Heck, when I saw WoK the first time I was confused over who Khan was. I had to have my dad explain the backstory.

 

[Christopher]

In fact, I always felt the movie sort of builds up the relationship with Kirk and Khan a little too much. Before I saw the episode and only had the movie to go on, it seemed to me that a lot more took place in their first meeting. While I'm not sure what I was expecting when I saw the episode, it seemed somewhat lightweight and wasn't as deep-rooted as it was made to seem.

Well, that's because what made it "deep" for Khan took place after the episode. In "Space Seed" itself, Khan just saw Kirk as an obstacle to his plans, and then at the end as an adversary who'd earned his respect. But then Ceti Alpha VI exploded and threw his world into ruin, his wife died, and he and his people lived in hellish conditions for 15 years -- and Kirk never once bothered to check up on them. So Khan built up a resentment for Kirk far deeper than anything he felt in "Space Seed."

And even when Ricardo went on to play Rourke in Fantasy Island, were any of you watching it thinking, "Hey, it's Khan from Space Seed!" ?

I was probably aware they were the same guy, but I doubt I reacted that strongly. Montalban was already a famous, veteran actor who'd been in all sorts of things, not only acting roles in over three decades' worth of film and TV but appearances as himself on game shows and variety shows. At the time Fantasy Island began, though, he was probably best-known as the Chrysler Cordoba spokesman in TV commercials (the source of the "rich Corinthian leather" meme in pop culture, though that's a misquote). So he was already a celebrity in his own right and I would've been aware of him in those terms, though I was also aware that "Space Seed" was part of his filmography.

 

[Greg Cox]

I suspect that "Space Seed"'s connection to THE WRATH OF KHAN raised its stature retroactively. It's a good episode, and Montalban delivers a memorable performance, but, prior to 1982, I'm not sure it was regarded as one of really classic eps, like "City on the Edge of Forever" or "Balance of Terror" or whatever. Back when I was a kid, it was never one of my favorites: too much mushy stuff with Marla and not enough action and space monsters.

As for Montalban . . . by the time Fantasy Island debuted, I also knew him as "Armando," the kindly circus owner from the PLANET OF THE APES sequels, and as the suave villain in the first WONDER WOMAN tv-movie . . . .

 

[Therin of Andor]

These things have always been of interest to me. The fan community was unbelievably different back then.

I dunno. The way we communicate is different, but the variety of fan types is pretty much the same.

I never had the fortune to see Space Seed before seeing ST2, so everytime I view it, the film is in mind. As I said before, it's not one of my favorite episodes. I don't think it particularly stands out.

In September 1981, Aussie fans had "Star Trek" come back to TV for its first full run since the 60s - in colour! I'd just bought a Betamax VCR and a handful of episodes were available (at about $80 per episode). We all started recording the weekly eps. to keep. The night before "Space Seed" played, my Beta broke down and had to go off for repairs. I had to watch "Space Seed" without taping it, and when Khan's flunky goes to slap Uhura, the footage jolted. A censor's edit, probably from the old 60s reel.

Because I couldn't bear to have an episode missing, and it happened to be one of the handful available on sell-thru, I shelled out some $$$$. Amazingly, I realised that the Australian Censor's edit made the act worse than it really was. In the uncut sell-thru tape, the male hand deliberately doesn't make contact with Uhura's face. So weird.

And even when Ricardo went on to play Rourke in Fantasy Island, were any of you watching it thinking, "Hey, it's Khan from Space Seed!" ?

I wish I'd already seen "Space Seed", just to realise the deliciious irony of Madlyn Rhue guesting on "Fantasy Island".

 

[CaptainMatt]

I don't recall it being Khan who tried to slap her, I just remember one of his people slapping her hard.