Is Picard a hypocrite?

[The Overlord]

This would have implied more tense relations with the Empire and most likely far less cooperation before and during the Dominion War, i.e. the Defiant would not have been equipped with a Romulan cloaking device.

If there was no treaty, the Federation could just make their own cloaking device and the romulans were not helpful in the lead up to the Dominion war, until the Federation used some rather dirty tactics to trick the Romulans into the war. The Romulans were not helpful, period.

I don't see any benefits as I doubt that the Romulans stop to be Romulans just because of a bit of Federation sabre-rattling. Sure, they might not do something like the Trojan Horse mission again but they will surely reallocate their forces and attention upon the Federation border. Spock's underground movement will have a much harder time to flourish in such a tense 'drums of war' climate.
After all you don't talk about a minor treaty, the Treaty of Algeron is THE peace treaty between the UFP and the Empire.

And in the several years between Unification and when Romulus blew up, how successful was this underground group at changing anything, it seems like they failed at their objective. By Star trek: Nemesis, the Romulan military seemed more willing to start a war, not less.

Its a peace the Empire undermined all the time, not a true peace. Why should the Federation believe that the Romulans wouldn't pull stunt like the one they tried to pull in "Unification". Wouldn't people in the federation have become far more distrustful of the Romulans and see the peace treaty as the sham that it truly.

Another problem is the lack of evidence of the Trojan Horse mission, the Rommies blew the ships up. Sure, both sides know very well what really happened but appearances matter, the Romulans can pretend to not know what the Feds are talking about and portray the recent developments as unilateral peace-endangering behaviour in front of other major powers like the Klingons who don't know about the Trojan Horse mission unless they have very fine intelligence services.

There was enough circumstantial evidence that led the Enterprise to discover this plot in the first place, Spock sending that message and the romulans blowing up those ships are pretty clear signs of guilt. Appearances are strong to have the diplomatic advantage after that, but the Federation did not exercise.

It's a tricky game and one has to play it as cunningly as the Romulans. Brute force, aggressive posturing or blunt threats seem like the wrong way to deal with this silent enemy. In my opinion endangering the peace treaty just to prove a point, better a truthful war than a fake peace, is foolish in my opinion. Of course it is a fake peace, of course you always have to be vigilante with the Romulans. But it is a form of peace nonetheless and it is preferable to war. You can't expect more than a fake peace if you deal with people whose main dogma is unlimited expansion.

And I think its foolish to give up an important strategic advantage for a peace treaty the other side has no real respect for. That's not diplomacy, that's just knuckling under.

Plus if the Federation simply pulled out the treaty, that wouldn't be an act of war, that would just mean that particular treaty is at an end. Its not like the Federation would just start blasting Romulan ships after that, the treaty ended because the Romulans have been acting in bad faith. They can always sign a new treaty and actually honor it and if the Romulans start shooting, the war would be their fault, not the Federation's. All the Federation did was pull out of the treaty because the other side was not acting in good faith. The Romulans seemed to want avoid a direct conflict, preferring to try to draw the Federation into a conflict, it seems unlikely they would go for a direct conflict.

Sometimes you have to stand up to a bully, otherwise the bully thinks he just push you around whenever he wants.

 

[The Overlord]

If you refer to my acceptance of such trade-offs in one case and not another, the difference is that here the Federation decided about Federation citizens whereas in the Ba'ku issue the Federation decided the fate of non-Federation citizens.
If there had been a war your government might have the right to redraw the border lines and force you to move. If oil is found under your house your government might also have the right to force you to move and compensate you for it but only your government and not any other government.

Problem is this...

The settlers of Dorvan V left Earth two centuries prior, which would have put it around the beginnings of the Federation. If they left Earth for good it could be seen as them renouncing their citizenship. If they renounced their Earth citizenship prior to the formation of the Federation, their citizenship could be in doubt.

So the Federation may have given away a world that wasn't theirs to give away...

AFAIK, Dorvan V was indeed said to be a Federation world in Federation territory. So however questionable that decision may have been (and we really have no idea, since the exact terms of the treaty were never revealed onscreen), the Federation was within its rights to cede it to the Cardassians.

And it should be noted that the Federation was willing to help the colonists move. That is part of eminent domain even today - if the government takes your house, they have to pay you for it and assist you in finding a new home. Same story here. While I can certainly understand why the natives of Dorvan V didn't want to abandon their homes, it's not as if the Federation was leaving them to rot. It was their own idea to stay and subject themselves to Cardassian oversight. Not saying they deserved the subsequent treatment (from the Cardassians) that they got, but neither is the Federation responsible for that treatment.

As for the Ba'ku:

Spoiler: novels

Non-canon though it may be, I fully accept the explanation that Section 31 was responsible for what we see in Insurrection. It fits their M.O. perfectly. The things in that film are EXACTLY the sort of plots which Section 31 frequently engages in. The Federation at large would not stoop to that level, but Section 31 definitely would.

The Ba'ku planet was in Federation territory, does that mean the Federation

And I have heard a lot of people say the concept of eminent domain is problematic and could be abused.

Plus doesn't seem unfair to ask a group of people who have subjected forced relocation in the past to relocate again for the benefit of a society they have never been a part of?

Again it seems really bad when Picard is willing to go to war over aliens who look exactly like white people and just sighs, but ultimately decides to relocate the aboriginals.

 

[horatio83]

And I think its foolish to give up an important strategic advantage for a peace treaty the other side has no real respect for. That's not diplomacy, that's just knuckling under.

Plus if the Federation simply pulled out the treaty, that wouldn't be an act of war, that would just mean that particular treaty is at an end. Its not like the Federation would just start blasting Romulan ships after that, the treaty ended because the Romulans have been acting in bad faith. They can always sign a new treaty and actually honor it and if the Romulans start shooting, the war would be their fault, not the Federation's. All the Federation did was pull out of the treaty because the other side was not acting in good faith. The Romulans seemed to want avoid a direct conflict, preferring to try to draw the Federation into a conflict, it seems unlikely they would go for a direct conflict.

Sometimes you have to stand up to a bully, otherwise the bully thinks he just push you around whenever he wants.

Foolish? The Tomed Incident lead to the Treaty of Algeron. What precisely happened is unknown but it has been pretty horrible, otherwise the Federation would not have agreed to not use cloaking devices.
Lives have been lost just like during the Earth-Romulan War and other minor incidents like the one we saw in TOS. Preventing war and the associated loss of lives is what the Federation cares about, not some heroic "standing up to the bully". In case you didn't notice, there are not merely Romulans but also Klingons, Cardassians, the Dominion, Borg, Gorn and Breen. Lots of bullies on the schoolyard and if you endanger whatever fragile peace arrangement you have with them merely for the sake of principle, such that you can self-righteously clap yourself on the shoulder and tell yourself that you stood up to the bullies, that they are responsible for the war and not you while the entire galaxy is burning you do not really care about the well-being of your citizens.

People who have not experienced the horrors of war have a hard time to understand that peace is always worth a high price.

The Romulans don't stop to be insidious, plotting manipulators just because the Feds cancel the peace treaty. You suggest that the Federation should force them to change, no matter the cost. I say, and the Feds say this as well, our duty is not to engage in bloody, idealistic crusading that might easily lead to the second Romulan War but to keep our citizens safe. So far we have dealt with their trickery fairly well, without a loss of lives. Sounds like a decent kind of peace. Not a totally sincere peace but peace nonetheless.

 

[horatio83]

The Ba'ku planet was in Federation territory, does that mean the Federation

And I have heard a lot of people say the concept of eminent domain is problematic and could be abused.

Plus doesn't seem unfair to ask a group of people who have subjected forced relocation in the past to relocate again for the benefit of a society they have never been a part of?

Again it seems really bad when Picard is willing to go to war over aliens who look exactly like white people and just sighs, but ultimately decides to relocate the aboriginals.

You still haven't understood that the Ba'ku are not Federation citizens whereas the Indians on Dorvan V are. The Federation has authority over the latter but not over the former. Picard merely plays by the book.
You also totally ignored that Picard does not force the Indians to do anything after they basically said that they wanna be on their own, that they don't wanna be relocated and that they give up their Federation citizenship and are willing to become subjects of the Cardassian Union.

They are by the way not "aboriginals", they moved to the planet some centuries ago, and whether they are red, white, black or yellow is totally irrelevant. You cannot say that people who are part of an ethnic group that has been nearly eradicated have special rights. If anything the descendants of the survivors of an attempted genocide should remind us that everybody has the same rights.

 

[BillJ]

As for the Ba'ku:

Spoiler: novels

Non-canon though it may be, I fully accept the explanation that Section 31 was responsible for what we see in Insurrection. It fits their M.O. perfectly. The things in that film are EXACTLY the sort of plots which Section 31 frequently engages in. The Federation at large would not stoop to that level, but Section 31 definitely would.

I cannot stress how much I disagree with this interpretation. The Federation is a democratic collection of 150 plus worlds. To try and assign blame elsewhere simply ignores the fact that they wouldn't all share human values.

These novels are really old so I'm not sure spoilers are warranted...

You're telling me that a species like the Andorians, who are a dying race in the novels, wouldn't be interested in doubling the lifespans of their people while they struggle with the rampant fertility issues?

Insurrection tries to paint a black and white picture on a situation that is anything but black and white. Especially in a democratic order of worlds with wildly varying morality.

 

[horatio83]

The Federation is not merely a democracy but also a place of law and order where kidnapping, theft and murder are considered to be crimes. And no, they are not human values but universal values in the Federation. If the Andorians would consider it as appropriate to sacrifice a bunch of aliens to live longer they would be the Andorian Empire and not members of the Federation.

About the Section 31 interpretation, they might have been involved but in this case they did a lousy job of gathering intelligence about the So'na and in the end the Federation council permitted Dougherty's mission. So all Section 31 could have done was misinformation, manipulating representatives and so on.
T think it is more sincere to admit that the Federation was perfectly willing to commit an atrocity until Picard interfered. That's an old pattern from TNG, nasty Admiral violates Federation principles, Picard idealistically fights for them. Doesn't become more black and white than such a simply morality tale.

 

[BillJ]

Spoiler: The Typhon Pact

Well Andor ended up leaving the Federation because they felt the Federation government wasn't responsive to their needs as a people.

 

[BillJ]

What Insurrection lacked was any real danger to our crew. The story pits pretty white people against a severe looking, elderly Admiral and a group of unfortunate looking people. Make Picard choose between Geordi or Beverly laying in sick bay dying and only extracted meta-phasics can save them, then you'd have a far more interesting movie and a real moral conundrum for Picard.

As stands the only thing driving Picard's actions is the desire to get in Anij's bloomers.

EDIT:

Honestly, I don't blame Michael Piller for the train wreck that was Star Trek: Insurrection. The blame lays squarely at the feet of Rick Berman, Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner who watered down the concept to the inoffensive mush we saw on screen.

The original concept revolved around the mineral Serium Krellide, much like dilithium with warp speed, krellide was the mineral that made Federation medical technology possible. Casualties during the Dominion War had dwindled the supply of the valuable asset. Meaning that many were no longer receiving treatments... until the world that was harboring the Ba'ku was found. Mining the krellide released poisonous gas into the atmosphere making said world inhospitable to humanoid life for many decades.

In Piller's original treatment, a member of the Enterprise crew is seriously injured and badly in need of treatments only the krellide can provide...

I could see a scene playing out something like this:

INT: SICKBAY


Geordi lies unconscious on a bio-bed, burned badly from the
plasma explosion in Engineering. In comes Picard and Admiral
Dougherty.

Picard
(clearly worried)
How is he Beverly?

Crusher
Not well. He's suffered burns over
ninety-five percent of his body. Several
of his major organs are damaged.

Picard
Will he survive?

Crusher
If I get him into surgery now, I place his
chances at fifty-fifty.

Daugherty
Belay that, Doctor...

Daugherty motions for Picard to join him in a secluded
area of sickbay.



Daugherty
I cannot sanction the treatment of an officer
with such serious injuries.

Picard
I do not understand...

Daugherty
Jean-Luc, the war with the Dominion goes badly.
Our krellide reserves are at an all time low, we
have thousands of injured men across the quadrant
who we simply cannot afford to treat. Their injuries
so severe that we won't waste valuable resources
that can be used to treat men and women
with better chances of survival.

Picard
He's a damn fine officer.

Daugherty
So are the men and women all across the quadrant
who have sacrificed themselves. I'll allow Doctor
Crusher to do all that she can to make your
engineer comfortable but I will not authorize use
of krellide to save him with such poor odds of
survival.

Daugherty begins to exit.

Daugherty
I'm sorry, Jean-Luc.

The center tags don't work very well so I deleted them... but you get the picture.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the Federation council permitted Dougherty's mission.

So he says. I see no reason to believe him.

 

[BillJ]

the Federation council permitted Dougherty's mission.

So he says. I see no reason to believe him.

But there's nothing in the film that contradicts his statement as well...

Now! If the Enterprise gets through with news about their brave Captain's valiant struggle on behalf of the defenceless Ba'ku, your Federation politicians will waver, your Federation opinion polls will open a public debate, your Federation allies will want their say. ...Need I go on?

This dialogue would seem to suggest that the Federation government knew what was going on.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Ru'afo may have assumed all that, but what proof did *he* have? He probably believed it when Dougherty said that the Federation Council authorized the operation. But there is no proof that they actually did.

 

[BillJ]

^ Ru'afo may have assumed all that, but what proof did *he* have? He probably believed it when Dougherty said that the Federation Council authorized the operation. But there is no proof that they actually did.

There's Riker's line about the Federation Council doing a top level review. Like it or not, there's nothing in the film that points to Dougherty being dishonest about where the orders come from. Whether he was actually competent enough to carry out those orders is another question entirely.

 

[horatio83]

What Insurrection lacked was any real danger to our crew. The story pits pretty white people against a severe looking, elderly Admiral and a group of unfortunate looking people. Make Picard choose between Geordi or Beverly laying in sick bay dying and only extracted meta-phasics can save them, then you'd have a far more interesting movie and a real moral conundrum for Picard.

There has never been a Trek movie with a real moral conundrum, it has always been good guys against bad guys.

As stands the only thing driving Picard's actions is the desire to get in Anij's bloomers.

Nonsense, not even Kirk on his most horny day would quit Starfleet because he wants to get laid. Picard fights against the bad guys like any movie hero.

 

[BillJ]

Nonsense, not even Kirk on his most horny day would quit Starfleet because he wants to get laid.

Problem is that Picard is being affected by the radiation. So all bets are off as to his behavior in this situation.

 

[horatio83]

Not really. Sure, he feels younger and he falls in love with Anij and nobody would deny that playing the hero for her was also a motivation for him. But it wasn't his main motivation.
This is not Homer where people do all kind of crazy things because of a woman, this is Trek.

 

[BillJ]

Not really. Sure, he feels younger and he falls in love with Anij and nobody would deny that playing the hero for her was also a motivation for him. But it wasn't his main motivation.
This is not Homer where people do all kind of crazy things because of a woman, this is Trek.

We will have to leave it at 'agree to disagree' on Picard's motivations.

 

[sonak]

I'm not going to be sucked into another thread about INS, madness lies down that path. It's not a particularly good movie even apart from the horrible "dilemma."


But to answer the thread, yes, Picard is a hypocrite. Apart from a few technicalities, the situations are very similar, and in fact, there's a greater justification for removing the Baku than the Federation colonists.

I think they were just hoping Trek fans had forgotten or hadn't seen "journey's end."

 

[horatio83]

Citizenship is not a "technicality" and violating people is not a technicality either, it is a crime. I hope none of you ever makes the experience of a being abducted by a foreign government. Happened pretty often during the last decade.

 

[sonak]

Citizenship is not a "technicality" and violating people is not a technicality either, it is a crime. I hope none of you ever makes the experience of a being abducted by a foreign government. Happened pretty often during the last decade.

The situations you're likely referring to are in no way comparable.

 

[BillJ]

Citizenship is not a "technicality" and violating people is not a technicality either, it is a crime. I hope none of you ever makes the experience of a being abducted by a foreign government. Happened pretty often during the last decade.

If your great granny lives in the U.S. and leaves you a home, your still gonna be bound by the laws of the U.S. when dealing with that property even though you're not a citizen. And a local government can still take that property via eminent domain, even though you're not a citizen.

The Ba'ku are not Federation citizens but are sitting on a planet in Federation territory. Not even Picard cared to argue the semantics of that point.

You can argue the morality of the move til you're blue in the face, but I'm pretty sure that property law is going to come down on the side of Dougherty and Company.