When Does Babylon 5 not get boring?? lol...

[RandyS]

True, but my point was that while he was elected Vice-President, he assassinated his way into the Presidency.

He seized power.

No he wasn't.

My history might be a little rusty but Hitler ran to become President coming second. His party however had enough seats in the Reichstag to prevent the other main party from forming a Government after several attempts by them he was appointed Chancellor by Hindenberg. Hindenberg being Head of State whilst the position of Chancellor was more akin to Head of Government.

He then used the fire at the Riechstag building to gain more power.

i.e. an argument could be that: It's a communist plot, we must have these powers to fight the communists."

so he used the democratic process until it served his needs, much like it would appear with Clark in B5.

Also, it's worth noting that as far as 99.99% of Earth citizens were concerned at the time, Clark didn't assassinate his way into office but became President through legitimate succession after the tragic accident aboard Earthforce One. Though in reality it was a coup d'état, very few were aware this was the case. It's not like he shot Santiago in public and declared himself king of the universe or anything.

No, he didn't literally put a gun to Santiago's head, but he WAS the mastermind behind the assassination, you can tell this with his line in that recording "I've wanted Santiago dead for so long.".

He was the mastermind, and as such, was directly responsible.

 

[Lighthammer]

I read through most of the thread and Vorta Claus on the first page has the advice that I always give.

If you can't get into Season 1, pick a random episode in the middle of Season 2 and go from there, then when you get to the end, rewatch it from the beginning.

Some people like to watch a series and give it a huge birth to allow it to develop and trust me, it does. It's not like a series like Andromeda or Earth: Final Conflict where it has an engaging first season and you keep watching and watching to see where it all comes together and never does. If you aren't the type that is willing to watch a series through the building parts, you'll appreciate season 1 A LOT more after you get to the end. There are so many cool things foreshadowed in the first season.

I think season 1 gets even better once you do a little research and get a feel for the original direction of the series and release just how much was built up in season 1.

Like some people have said, Sinclair got a bad wrap, but the truth is, Michael O'Hare nailed the part. It just doesn't feel like it till you get the whole story.

 

[Jan]

Also, it's worth noting that as far as 99.99% of Earth citizens were concerned at the time, Clark didn't assassinate his way into office but became President through legitimate succession after the tragic accident aboard Earthforce One. Though in reality it was a coup d'état, very few were aware this was the case. It's not like he shot Santiago in public and declared himself king of the universe or anything.

No, he didn't literally put a gun to Santiago's head, but he WAS the mastermind behind the assassination, you can tell this with his line in that recording "I've wanted Santiago dead for so long.".

He was the mastermind, and as such, was directly responsible.

Nobody here's arguing that Clark wasn't responsible for Santiago's assassination. But most of the people back on Earth didn't know it.

What I always found extra chilling is that it was Morden's voice in the transmission to Clark in "Voices of Authority". That leaves open the question of who was manipulating who and what since we know that the Psi Corps was also meddling behind the scenes. The fact that we hear Morden suggests that the Shadows were more directly responsible for things than William Edgars ever thought.

Jan

 

[RJDiogenes]

I am reading my way through this excellent exchange of ideas as time permits. Just made it to page 8 but have to stop for today. I liked Sinclaire's reserved style and believe it was played that way intentionally. Season one has some slow patches but I'm old enough to enjoy moving at that pace. As you can see below, I loved "TKO" and place it in my personal top 10 while it languishes in the bottom of most fans lists. Go figure.

I agree. I have no problem with the pacing. That's one reason I like going back to old shows like Route 66 or movies like Carnival of Souls-- they weren't all paced like a Johnny Test cartoon.

 

[Reverend]

Also, it's worth noting that as far as 99.99% of Earth citizens were concerned at the time, Clark didn't assassinate his way into office but became President through legitimate succession after the tragic accident aboard Earthforce One. Though in reality it was a coup d'état, very few were aware this was the case. It's not like he shot Santiago in public and declared himself king of the universe or anything.

No, he didn't literally put a gun to Santiago's head, but he WAS the mastermind behind the assassination, you can tell this with his line in that recording "I've wanted Santiago dead for so long.".

He was the mastermind, and as such, was directly responsible.

Nobody here's arguing that Clark wasn't responsible for Santiago's assassination. But most of the people back on Earth didn't know it.

What I always found extra chilling is that it was Morden's voice in the transmission to Clark in "Voices of Authority". That leaves open the question of who was manipulating who and what since we know that the Psi Corps was also meddling behind the scenes. The fact that we hear Morden suggests that the Shadows were more directly responsible for things than William Edgars ever thought.

Jan

Exactly. Also, I think Justin has a line in 'Zha'Dum' that addresses the idea that the Shadows have managed to influence Psi Corps. Plus of course there was that Psi Cop in the meeting with Morden and that Earth senator in 'Matters of Honour'...(I think?)

There's actually a much deeper story going on there, though the pieces of it are scattered all over the place. In a nutshell though, Psi Corps isn't as monolithic as it appears from the outside and there are at least two factions within vying for control. On the one had there's the "old guard" with the likes of Bester who believe in the natural superiority of teeps and there's the other newer faction that was fostered by elements within Earthforce (with ties to EF New Technologies/Bio-warfare & IPX) who are responsible for a lot of the nastier experiments and the systematic mistreatment of their own (non-conformist) people. The arranged marriage thing was always there, but I get the impression they were the ones that started the forced impregnations and the re-education camps.

The latter are the ones that allied with Morden, were behind Control, Bureau 13, the incident at Syria Planum and supplying that shipment of "weapons" to the Shadows. Hence that thing with Bester in season 3.

 

[Snatcher42]

The latter are the ones that allied with Morden, were behind Control, Bureau 13, the incident at Syria Planum and supplying that shipment of "weapons" to the Shadows. Hence that thing with Bester in season 3.

Yeah, and I think it was this Psi-Corp faction/Shadow alliance that were the real villains behind the series. As much as Clark had his own ambitions, he was only able to achieve them because they fell in line with what they wanted. In the final analysis, Clark was little more than a puppet to these larger powers.

 

[Reverend]

^Pretty much. Though I'd say that B5 didn't really have (nor did it need) any "real" villains. Everyone had their motivations and did what they thought was in their best interests at the time. Clark, Morden, the Shadows, the Vorlons, the Drakh, Bester and yes, of course Londo. I will say though, that from what little we know it seems as though this shady Psi Corps/Earthforce/IPX/Earthdome group would have played a much more prominent role in Crusade.

What I like about this "big conspiracy" is that it's probably nowhere near as mysterious as you might think. From what I gathered from the Psi Corps books, this "conspiracy of shadow" (to coin a phrase) only really crystallised as a result of the Earth-Minbari War. I'm guessing getting that close to extinction probably prompted some EF Generals, maybe a few influential senators, scientists or mega-corp industrialists and perhaps a few self styled patriots to begin to take steps to safeguard against anything like that happening again.

Bit by bit they would accumulate contacts with influence, secure funding, recruit agents (unwitting or otherwise) and eventually get into Psi Corps and hijack a lot of Vacit's secret projects and organisational substructure after they pushed him and the Cadre Primers out of power. The EA Civil War probably ran out of their control, which is probably why Edgars (who may or may not have been in on it) took steps to bring Clark and by extension the telepaths back under control. Remember in all this that the Psi Corps faction aren't in control of the conspiracy (as far an anyone could truly control such a thing) they're just tools and weapons. It's Bester and his people who would have the mundanes on a leash.

The Telepath War probably helped their cause more than anything as it purged most of Bester's people, which in the public's eye may have seemed like the last remnants of Clark's regime finally put to bed. In reality, it just let the puppet masters melt back into the shadows and to develop all the new toys suddenly left lying around after the last of the First Ones departed...which leaves us in the state of affairs we find in Crusade...am I the only one that's itching to know what happens next?