B5: Why place the ISA's HQ on Minbar ?

[Lighthammer]

Hey all,

I just got done rewatching B5 not too long ago. For the most part I've always found the series to be very well thought out in terms of almost every plot point really making sense in the grand spectrum.

There is one point I am starting to question on my last run of the series: Why place the ISA's HQ on Minbar?

Babylon 5 just seems more logical when you think about it and break it down.

Here's some examples:

#1.) Babylon 5 was established where it was because it's 100% neutral space. Why would you violate the neutrality of Babylon 5 by moving it to a single race's home planet?

#2.) Being close to Epislon 3 would have had huge advantages.

• It could easily act one of the strongest deterents in mitigating attacks against B5.
• It would serve to demonstrate the ISA has power.
• It would demonstrate the ISA has access to technology lightyears ahead of even the Minbari.
• Epislon 3 could easily act as the primary training ground for Rangers weather it be a base on the surface or usage of parts of the facility below. As far as we can tell, the place is huge.
• ISA could easily help support Epison 3 in basic functions through engineering and security team detachments.
• A ton of other reasons...

#3.) Babylon 5 itself has an astounding legacy of bringing together factions.

Those are just a few of my immediate knee jerk reactions as to why the Babylon 5 station and planet would have seemed more logical of a capital then Minbar for the ISA.

I'm actually curious if anyone can give me good reasons why Minbar would make a better capital then Babylon 5.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Probably a security issue. Having the ISA headquarters on the station would make it too vulnerable to attack. The Minbari, having probably the highest level of technology amongst the different ISA races, would be able to provide the highest security. No one dares attack them.

 

[Yevetha]

Second that.

 

[Mr Light]

Given the Minbari are the most advanced race and providing the lion's share of technology and manpower, they should get whatever the hell they want

 

[Snaploud]

Babylon 5 was only one mile long. It was perfect for debate among non-aligned worlds.

Minbar is an advanced, populated planet. It is perfect for building a government for an intersteller alliance.

It's the difference between housing the United States Senate (one building and a bunch of sleeping quarters) and housing the entire United States federal government (all of Washington D.C. plus its suburbs).

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

The Minbari basically invented the Rangers and the White Star fleet.

After the departure of the First Ones, they are also the most important interstellar power left. Why do you think the UN is headquartered in New York?

 

[Jan]

Babylon 5 was only one mile long. It was perfect for debate among non-aligned worlds.

Five miles long but the point is the same.

IIRC, there was an on-screen comment about the ISA buying the Station and then the idea was just dropped. It could well have been that it was decided that a series of farewells as everybody left the station was a better way to go.

But for in-story reasons, to me, it's a matter of function. The station has embassies for the varied races and embassies are the 'home soil' of each. It always seemed to me that if the ISA headquarters were there, the only embassies that would really belong there would be the member races. Remember, B5 was only home to a league of *non-alligned* worlds before - sort of like renting a meeting room semi-permanently.

Jan

 

[Lighthammer]

See, here's the thing, as far as the ISA goes, the most technological thing that exists right now is the Great Machine.

Assuming Draal wasn't somehow opposed to it, it seems like Epsilon 3 should have slowly become the main base for the ISA, eventually moving everything from B5 down to the planet.

Now I realize Epsilon 3 isn't a "Class M" planet (pardon the carry over from Trek) but it seems to me that either levels of terraforming or doming (like on Mars) would easily be possible with an eventual bigger station then B5 being formed at some point.

Yea, I can concede that MAYBE Minbar would be a good temporarily headquarters for security reasons, but it doesn't seem like the ideal place for the long term base. Even at that, if the ISA can operate out of B5 for about a year, security doesn't seem to be the primary concern for moving it (although I can concede that this could be written off as a plot and budget issue).

Snaploud started to make my point for me where the US Capital was moved from Philadelphia to Washington D.C., but, in the same way that D.C. was made into a district expressly to ensure that no one state had more power then another in the government.

 

[Sindatur]

See, here's the thing, as far as the ISA goes, the most technological thing that exists right now is the Great Machine.

Assuming Draal wasn't somehow opposed to it, it seems like Epsilon 3 should have slowly become the main base for the ISA, eventually moving everything from B5 down to the planet.

Now I realize Epsilon 3 isn't a "Class M" planet (pardon the carry over from Trek) but it seems to me that either levels of terraforming or doming (like on Mars) would easily be possible with an eventual bigger station then B5 being formed at some point.

Yea, I can concede that MAYBE Minbar would be a good temporarily headquarters for security reasons, but it doesn't seem like the ideal place for the long term base. Even at that, if the ISA can operate out of B5 for about a year, security doesn't seem to be the primary concern for moving it (although I can concede that this could be written off as a plot and budget issue).

Snaploud started to make my point for me where the US Capital was moved from Philadelphia to Washington D.C., but, in the same way that D.C. was made into a district expressly to ensure that no one state had more power then another in the government.

Draal absolutely would be opposed, because we aren't ready for the Technology, he tells us this. Epsilon 3 was off limits to protect it from the wrong hands, including the ISA's

 

[Snaploud]

Now I realize Epsilon 3 isn't a "Class M" planet (pardon the carry over from Trek) but it seems to me that either levels of terraforming or doming (like on Mars) would easily be possible with an eventual bigger station then B5 being formed at some point.

That would take years (if not decades or centuries), and the only people who would understand the importance of the location would be the few people with the most reason to keep Epsilon 3's technology a secret.

Yea, I can concede that MAYBE Minbar would be a good temporarily headquarters for security reasons, but it doesn't seem like the ideal place for the long term base. Even at that, if the ISA can operate out of B5 for about a year, security doesn't seem to be the primary concern for moving it (although I can concede that this could be written off as a plot and budget issue).

I think you're putting aside the long-term security benefits of the Minbari homeworld a bit too easily. Up until now, wiping out Babylon 5 simply meant getting rid of a few government representatives. Now, we're talking about an entire government. You need the security of a major technologically developed world with already-designed defenses.

So, reasons one and two to move to Minbar would be money and time (the money and time saved from not having to build the infrastructure from scratch). Reason number three would be security. Reason number four would be the impressive nature of the Minbari homeworld (showing visitors one of the key benefits of Alliance membership--technology).

 

[Reverend]

The Great Machine appears to have a level of technological advancement on par with the First Ones (indeed, one of them probably built it) so there's NO WAY Draal would allow any on the younger races--not even, and perhaps *especially* the Minbari--free access to all those goodies. At least not for a few more hundred thousand years.

Babylon 5 was only one mile long. It was perfect for debate among non-aligned worlds.

Five miles long but the point is the same.

IIRC, there was an on-screen comment about the ISA buying the Station and then the idea was just dropped. It could well have been that it was decided that a series of farewells as everybody left the station was a better way to go.

But for in-story reasons, to me, it's a matter of function. The station has embassies for the varied races and embassies are the 'home soil' of each. It always seemed to me that if the ISA headquarters were there, the only embassies that would really belong there would be the member races. Remember, B5 was only home to a league of *non-alligned* worlds before - sort of like renting a meeting room semi-permanently.

Jan

I think the plot element of formally purchasing remains intact since in 'SiL' there was mention of the ISA giving B5 back to the EA. But yes, I tend to agree that JMS likely reconsidered exactly how things would be structured between the production of seasons four and five.

From an in-universe perspective I think B5 best serves it's original purpose of neutral ground for commerce and diplomacy, rather than as a capital. After all, there appeared to be a number of League holdouts early on and some haggling over conditions (the Abbai and the pak'ma'ra IIRC) plus there's all the independent non-League worlds that may not have had a voice before. Worlds like the Enphili and other that had previously been subject worlds of the Centauri were all probably coming out of the woodwork too.

Of course the fact that it took the best part of two decades for the Alliance to solidify to the point where the station was finally made redundant shows just how important it continued to be.

Minbar on the other hand was much better suited as an administrative capital and, as others have said, it appeared to have been providing most of the personnel, materiel and (more the the point) finance for the Alliance. Plus of couse I don't think anyone would be happy with the HQ being situated on any of the other major homeworlds. Earth was clearly out of the question and there's *no way* anyone would been happy about it being on Centauri Prime. Narn was of course in no fit state and none of the others (save perhaps the Drazi) had the economic clout. Then of course there's the fact that the ISA's power base was without question the Rangers and the White Star fleet.

Indeed, it's no coincidence that the ISA's HQ was built in Tuzanor rather than Yedor.

 

[Sindatur]

Now I realize Epsilon 3 isn't a "Class M" planet (pardon the carry over from Trek) but it seems to me that either levels of terraforming or doming (like on Mars) would easily be possible with an eventual bigger station then B5 being formed at some point.

That would take years (if not decades or centuries), and the only people who would understand the importance of the location would be the few people with the most reason to keep Epsilon 3's technology a secret.

Plus, I think you're ignoring the security benefits of the Minbari homeworld a bit too easily. Up until now, wiping out Babylon 5 simply meant getting rid of a few government representatives. Now, we're talking about an entire government. You need the security of a major technologically developed world.

So, reasons one and two to move to Minbar would be money and time (the money and time saved from not having to build the infrastructure from scratch). Reason number three would be security. Reason number four would be the impressive nature of the Minbari homeworld (showing visitors one of the key benefits of Alliance membership--technology).

psssstttt, mis-quote

 

[Snaploud]

Now I realize Epsilon 3 isn't a "Class M" planet (pardon the carry over from Trek) but it seems to me that either levels of terraforming or doming (like on Mars) would easily be possible with an eventual bigger station then B5 being formed at some point.

That would take years (if not decades or centuries), and the only people who would understand the importance of the location would be the few people with the most reason to keep Epsilon 3's technology a secret.

Plus, I think you're ignoring the security benefits of the Minbari homeworld a bit too easily. Up until now, wiping out Babylon 5 simply meant getting rid of a few government representatives. Now, we're talking about an entire government. You need the security of a major technologically developed world.

So, reasons one and two to move to Minbar would be money and time (the money and time saved from not having to build the infrastructure from scratch). Reason number three would be security. Reason number four would be the impressive nature of the Minbari homeworld (showing visitors one of the key benefits of Alliance membership--technology).

psssstttt, mis-quote

I wasn't sure to what you were referring, but I edited to add some quoted text regarding security and changed my response slightly to better take that quote into account. *shrugs*

 

[Sindatur]

That would take years (if not decades or centuries), and the only people who would understand the importance of the location would be the few people with the most reason to keep Epsilon 3's technology a secret.

Plus, I think you're ignoring the security benefits of the Minbari homeworld a bit too easily. Up until now, wiping out Babylon 5 simply meant getting rid of a few government representatives. Now, we're talking about an entire government. You need the security of a major technologically developed world.

So, reasons one and two to move to Minbar would be money and time (the money and time saved from not having to build the infrastructure from scratch). Reason number three would be security. Reason number four would be the impressive nature of the Minbari homeworld (showing visitors one of the key benefits of Alliance membership--technology).

psssstttt, mis-quote

I wasn't sure to what you were referring, but I edited to add some quoted text regarding security and changed my response slightly to better take that quote into account. *shrugs*

The Quote wasn't mine, it was LightHammer's

 

[sojourner]

I think a better question is why would someone design an O'Neil type colony (B5) to have less than 100 year lifespan?? Talk about lousy investments!

 

[Snaploud]

psssstttt, mis-quote

I wasn't sure to what you were referring, but I edited to add some quoted text regarding security and changed my response slightly to better take that quote into account. *shrugs*

The Quote wasn't mine, it was LightHammer's

Ah, okay. I fixed it.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Something no one has mentioned yet: ultimately, B5 was under Earth jurisdiction, "neutral ground" status or not. Given that Earth had just come out of a civil war where one faction was very much "anti-alien", many races might well have been uncomfortable with the "capital" of the ISA falling under Earth supervision.

 

[Lighthammer]

Draal absolutely would be opposed, because we aren't ready for the Technology, he tells us this. Epsilon 3 was off limits to protect it from the wrong hands, including the ISA's

To be clear, I wouldn't expect that Draal would give complete access or even partial to all the technology he has access to.

It could simply see Draal providing a few "enticing nuggets" so the ISA seemed less like a tech farm with the Minbari seemingly providing a huge chunk of their technological secrets.

 

[Reverend]

Something no one has mentioned yet: ultimately, B5 was under Earth jurisdiction, "neutral ground" status or not. Given that Earth had just come out of a civil war where one faction was very much "anti-alien", many races might well have been uncomfortable with the "capital" of the ISA falling under Earth supervision.

^Not so. B5 was still apparantly an independent state in season 5. It still had Narn security officers; they and the human ones still wore the green, non-EA issue uniforms, while Franklin, Zack and Corwin didn't go back to wearing EF uniforms either. Having Lochley take command was said to be a gesture of reconciliation. It did not mean that B5 fell back under Earth control; Lochley still answered directly to Sheridan and by extension, the ISA Advisory Council. Indeed, it might be worth noting that the original plan prior to Christian leaving was to have Ivanova in command with a separate Earth Ambassador character representing EA interests.

Aside from all that, Minbar had also just come out of a civil war where one side was notoriously anti-alien, so that's not really a consideration. Indeed, most of the former League worlds had not so long before been at war with their neighbours, so there probably weren't many major planets that couldn't be construed as being politically insensitive to one party or another.

On the other hand, while Minbar and Earth both went the isolationist route during the early days of the Shadow War, but after the Grey Council was broken, the religious and worker castes provided the bulk of the support for the Babylon Treaty coalition.

The deciding factors had to have been money, technology, the Rangers, Delenn and of course because none of the other governments had the clout.

Draal absolutely would be opposed, because we aren't ready for the Technology, he tells us this. Epsilon 3 was off limits to protect it from the wrong hands, including the ISA's

To be clear, I wouldn't expect that Draal would give complete access or even partial to all the technology he has access to.

It could simply see Draal providing a few "enticing nuggets" so the ISA seemed less like a tech farm with the Minbari seemingly providing a huge chunk of their technological secrets.

For me the deal breaker is that it'd turn Draal and the Great Machine into the equivalent of a nuclear deterrent, but without the quasi-stability of mutual annihilation. Even if Draal only gave them squatting rights to a few empty chambers to set up shop while keeping all his fancy toys under lock and key, the implied threat to other race would be very hard to miss. The white star fleet is enough of a stick, adding the Death Star's big brother into the mix would have been more of a hindrance then a help.

It's all moot anyway. Sheridan wouldn't have suggested it, Delenn wouldn't have supported it and Draal wouldn't have gone along with it. End of story.

 

[JoeD80]

I think a better question is why would someone design an O'Neil type colony (B5) to have less than 100 year lifespan?? Talk about lousy investments!

Well the Earth Alliance didn't put much money into it because they blew all their cash on B4. Once that vanished they didn't want to waste more funds - B5 only got funded with extra money from the Minbari and Centauri.