So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame?

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

King Daniel edifies

100% agreed. In the same way that nuSpock isn't responsible for the actions of Spock Prime, or Captain Janeway isn't responsible for Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame", the Captain Braxton in command of the USS Relativity is not responsible for an action that a possible future version of him (his future having changed from that simply by knowing about it) had commited in some alternate timeline.

But, you're not thinking about the sentencing?

Maybe it's a light fine?

Maybe it's almost nothing.

You know those political correct sexual awareness courses they used to make every one take until they leaned to behave in the workplace?

Fuck it, it could even be a few hours of therapy.

A point is that young Braxton has it in him, he has the character flaw waiting to explode from inside of him, like some sort of badseed, that will bring down reality, and the least Star Fleet should do is court martial and defrock the lad, kick him out of Star fleet and make damn sure that he no longer is in charge of any stray time travel technology up to and including a Starship.

If they'd done that with Kim after Timeless, the USS Rhode Island wouldn't have had a Captain who bent over and allowed the universe to end because he was craven for a little approval from some senile old lady.

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

You can't sentence someone without a crime!

So what if he has a bad character flaw? Until you actually commit a crime, the law cannot act against you based solely on personality traits...or at least it can't in a society where justice still stands.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Are you saying that the crime didn't happen or that the present self of the future criminal is completely disconnected?

Voyager Blew up time after time.

Seven of Nine died multiple times through misadventures trying to stop Braxton.

When they finally caught Braxton, he hadn't blown up Voyager yet, and he hadn't run afoul of all the multiple Seven of Nine corpses trying to route him.

But he was surely guilty of mass murder right?

Legally guilty.

If even crazy terrorist Braxton was being convicted for a crime he hadn't committed yet because Voyager had been unexploded by a timely backstep...

So what exactly are they charging him with?

fiddling with time, or mass murder, and mass remurder?

What's a worse offence, travelling through time and almost blowing up Voyager, or travelling through time and blowing up Voyager, or traveling through time and redestroying Voyager dozens of times?

Should he be charged 9 times, for the death of Voyagers crew 9 times over, just because Time Cop Braxton failed to stop his senoir self 9 times. It's not his fault that the time cops are so hamfisted.

If the elder Braxton can be convicted of crimes he hadn't yet committed, what's the cut off point? A year? 10 years? Birth?

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Elder Braxton was caught in an attempted murder, terrorist attack, whichever send him to jail.

Present Braxton can't be convicted of anything.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Remember, the Braxtons were integrated. So by the time it was all over, there was no Braxton who had not committed the crime.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Isn't that condemning an innocent man? Why Tuvix a sane, innocent man with a lunatic possible-future version?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Future Braxton was suffering from temporal psychosis. So it is possible that present Braxton also was.

Perhaps after Ducane arrested Braxton, a search of the captain's quarters turned up incriminating evidence?

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

^ Why would there be incriminating evidence? Braxton's reasoning for going after Voyager was that he'd been forced out of Starfleet, since he's still in the fleet he'd have no reason to already be collecting evidence.

And the future Braxton actually explains the plan to past Braxton...if he already knew it there'd be no reason to tell him and moreover if past Braxton knew the plan, he could actually actively thwart the efforts to catch the assassin...

And even if there were incriminating evidence, pesky old habeus corpus again would say that was an illegal search, because it follows an illegal arrest!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Braxton's reasoning for going after Voyager was that he'd been forced out of Starfleet, since he's still in the fleet he'd have no reason to already be collecting evidence.

It is clear that Braxton had a grudge against Janeway personally, since she was responsible for so much of the messes he had to clean up.

if past Braxton knew the plan, he could actually actively thwart the efforts to catch the assassin...

He might already have been doing that very thing.

pesky old habeus corpus again would say that was an illegal search, because it follows an illegal arrest!

Again, by *our* legal standards it may have been that, but we have no idea what 29th-century law is like. It might be absolutely incomprehensible to us.

 

[E-DUB]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

One possible explanation is given in the novel "Watching the Clock". That is that the actions of Admiral Janeway led to the survival of the Federation by crippling the Borg. There was a line to the effect of, and I'm paraphrasing here. "In every timeline where the Borg weren't stopped, they ended up assimilating the galaxy by 2600." They let her get away with it because they pretty much had to.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Isn't that condemning an innocent man? Why Tuvix a sane, innocent man with a lunatic possible-future version?

Which is why there are vetting psych tests in the academy to make sure you're not a person who will go insane or be a selfish prick.

They want to make sure that it's not in your character to do really bad things, and there's a list of really bad things that they don't want you to do that they will subtly test you for a proclivity for, that if you fail against in the slightest, you're dumped form the program.

In Kirks time there were maybe 7 criminally insane people in the entire federation batshit enough to locked up in an asylum.

By Picards time, a head ache was reason to expect cancer or an aneurysm.

BY Janeways time, they were handing out starships to people like Janeway and Ransom.

You know my thoughts about he Captain of the USS Rhode Island.

At least Captain LaForge tried to kill Kim.

Oh?

"I'm a nice guy, a sweetie. But that guy, that awful guy is trying to destroy the universe, so of course I'm firing off a full spread of quantum torpedoes to save all the children and puppies."

Even a simp wet blanket milksop like LaForge knows that it's wrong to junk a perfectly usable universe just to save a hundred and 50 people.

 

[Deks]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Braxton had a personal grudge against Janeway probably because she was by his reasoning responsible for him being trapped in the late 20th century and enduring the barbaric medical treatment (which can be said for real life as well when it comes to various situations).

The temporal inversion in the Takara sector ('Timeless' episode) was nothing more than run of the mill problem that guys from the 29th century deal with on a regular basis.

My other theory would be that they have a 'primary' timeline and they either prevent or allow various temporal problems based on that data.

'Endgame' most likely was part of a 'proper timeline' after the changes... though to be honest, Janeway did risk a bit much with that, and allowed the Borg to assimilate the armor technology (big tactical error).
Depending on the Borg state after the events of Endgame (most likely SEVERELY damaged - the entire TW network was obliterated, and we saw Unimatrix 01 going up in flames as well).
They can rebuild most likely, but if the Borg make a comeback... this time, there should be no Queen.
Just the Collective as originally envisioned in 'Q Who'.
Much better.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

Janeway said that there ware 6 transwarp hubs in the galaxy.

Suitable redundancy.

That attack had no effect therefore on long term Borg goals.

What's the difference between the Queen "dying" and the Queen going back in time, since they both result in severing her connection to the collective completely.

That means that the Borg was also destroyed at the beginning of First Contact, and if the Queen had had to retreat back to her own present day life form the past the Borg Collective would have been a literal wasteland if she truly is irreplaceable.

 

[Deks]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

7 of 9 said ' The TW network has been obliterated Captain'.
That pretty much leaves little for other hubs to go unscathed... especially since the one Voyager used in Endgame was said to connect to all others.

My interpretation of this line is that all hubs in the Galaxy ended up destroyed in a subsequent chain reaction (which was mentioned and seen).

And even if some of the hubs survived (which is unlikely), the TW manifolds inside TW tunnels were all destroyed.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

How would she know that?

The ennnntttttiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee network?

Voyager can't scan transwarp for shit,

Barely scan a few light years in any direction through real space, and their connection to the network was blowing up behind them, which would be like looking through a window on fire into a building on fire... All they could see was the explosion behind them and not the Galaxy worth of conduits behind that explosion possibly exploding too, or building firewalls to save their hubs and unimatices.

Possibley an attempt at "flowery" launuage?

Here's the true irony.

The destruction of the transwarp network, if it was destroyed, would have ceased the dissemination of the nuerolytic pathogen, if it was the same transwarp network the Borg used to talk as to travel.

Captain Janeway saved the Borg from certain death?

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

"Relativity" is a dumb episode that's best ignored in my opinion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

The good and intelligent episodes aren't worth talking about because all we can say is "it's good and intelligent" followed by "I agree." or "I concur."

The only joy here, is in wallowing in filth.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

"Relativity" is a dumb episode that's best ignored in my opinion.

I thought it was a lot of fun. I also find the idea of a future where Starfleet has lost it's way (either intentionally or through writer cluelessness) fascinating.

 

[JB2005]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

"Relativity" is a dumb episode that's best ignored in my opinion.

I thought it was a lot of fun. I also find the idea of a future where Starfleet has lost it's way (either intentionally or through writer cluelessness) fascinating.

Personally I'd tend towards the latter...

And I agree, it's one of my personal favourites! The FX shot of Voyager at Utopia Planetia is possibly the best in the series!

 

[Deks]

Re: So why did 'USS Relativity' let Janeway rewrite history in Endgame

How would she know that?

The ennnntttttiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee network?

Voyager can't scan transwarp for shit,

Barely scan a few light years in any direction through real space, and their connection to the network was blowing up behind them, which would be like looking through a window on fire into a building on fire... All they could see was the explosion behind them and not the Galaxy worth of conduits behind that explosion possibly exploding too, or building firewalls to save their hubs and unimatices.

Possibley an attempt at "flowery" launuage?

You might want to revise that.
For one thing Voyager was able to distinguish TW frequencies, and their standard scanning capacity was a radius of 40 ly's (at least) - which is actually in line with Federation's technological capabilities of that era and the Enterprise-D had a comparatively similar scanning range.
'The Raven' episode (if I'm not mistaken) clearly established that.

Next in line are Astrometric sensors. 10x more accurate compared to regular SF mapping technology which also includes a plethora of Borg technology (among which are temporal sensors) and last but not least, in the episode 'Night', 7 was able to determine that there are no visible stellar phenomena for at least 2500 ly's... indicating the range of Astrometric sensors is comparatively VAST.

Furthermore, in the episode with the Hirogen when the ship encountered the subspace relay network which extended all the way to the edge of the beta quadrant, 7 was able to determine that the entire network collapsed (but it's evident that astrometric scans couldn't reach all the way to the BQ as indicated in 'Message in a bottle').
By that analogy alone, Astrometric sensors were connected to the relay network and 7 was able to determine that the entire network collapsed in the end.

Same technique she could have used to determine that the entire TW network was obliterated (per her own words - and 7 is not known to be exaggerating unless she states it - this piece of information would be crucial).

Here's the true irony.

The destruction of the transwarp network, if it was destroyed, would have ceased the dissemination of the nuerolytic pathogen, if it was the same transwarp network the Borg used to talk as to travel.

Captain Janeway saved the Borg from certain death?

Not quite.
You see, the Queen was directly infected with the pathogen and it took time before she couldn't regulate the shielding on the manifolds... after the queen lost control, Voyager fired on the TW manifolds, giving the pathogen enough time to be distributed to the majority of the Collective, if not entirety of it but with delayed effects.

Besides, the shockawave was traveling along the entire TW network in a chain reaction (which was mentioned to be a byproduct).
And, that Borg sphere with which the Queen was in contact with was obviously able to intercept Voyager from another TW juncture before it was disintegrated by the chain reaction.

Quite simple really.