Details of Ellison's Repent Harlequin/In Time Lawsuit

[David cgc]

Since he ended up hearing about everything through back-channels, that's what pissed him off. Orion gave him a one-time payment to settle.

Oh, so he's not entitled to whole sub-genres, he's entitled to being feted. That doesn't make him seem like even more of a petty jackass at all.

The current lawsuit doesn't say "no one else can use such story ideas."

No, Ellison calling "The Road" a ripoff of "A Boy and His Dog" said that. Now, you want to talk about a wide field of potential influences... but I get ahead of myself.

What really gets to me is that a lot of Ellison's supporters would not be in the best position if more writers held themselves to his standard of ownership. I doubt JMS would've been very sanguine if he got an injunction that required a "Based on 'The Lord of the Rings' by J.R.R. Tolkien"

Joe's been inspired by a *lot* more than Lord of the Rings. Viewers who only see Tolkien in that story have missed a lot of good books over the years.

Question 1:
Does the hypothetical actually imply that Tolkien was the only influence on Babylon 5? No, only that the Tolkien Estate could have demanded credit in an Ellisonesque manner based on well-cited similarities, references, and background material. Implicitly, other authors could've staked their claim, as well. Maybe Ray Bradbury could go for a "Special Thanks" in the end titles of "The Needs of Earth," for instance.

Question 2:
Would the hypothetical have been appreciably improved if I had instead said, "I doubt JMS would've been very sanguine if a parade of authors and estates with Ellison's 'moral courage' lined up to get "based on" credits (and residuals) for everything from 'The Lord of the Rings' to 'The Once And Future King,' because God forbid anyone do anything even vaguely similar to a prior work until the author has been dead and buried seventy years."? Probably not.

I don't appreciate manufactured disagreements. Dispute what I say, not something similar to what I said in a way that actually supports my point ("What, you think Babylon 5 was just a Tolkien pastiche? There are loads of people who should be suing JMS for copyright infringement! Why, he'd be completely destroyed if everyone was like Harlan.")

When I see someone who's accomplished half of what Ellison has take him to task for any of this I'll pay some attention.

Like the guy who made the two highest-grossing movies ever? He's even got one over on Ellison in artistic integrity, in that only about half the discussions of his works degenerate instantly into referendums about what an enormous asshole he is.

It's not like there aren't other high-profile people who criticized him. Heck, as said above Ellison once said he'd have given away the movie rights to "Soldier" for free so long as he was only asked, but noted science fiction author Harlan Ellison (you've heard of him, right?) recently said that "amateurs" who give away their work for free were starving professional writers and making it impossible to make a living. I doubt Harlan Ellison 2007 is pathetic enough to envy or resent that pissant wuss Harlan Ellison 1984.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Like the guy who made the two highest-grossing movies ever? He's even got one over on Ellison in artistic integrity, in that only about half the discussions of his works degenerate instantly into referendums about what an enormous asshole he is.enough to envy or resent that pissant wuss Harlan Ellison 1984.

You mean the guy who had to pay out for swiping from Ellison and then boasting about it? Yeah, big surprise that he's a critic. I don't doubt that O.J. Simpson has some thoughts regarding reform of California's civil law system.

I've been engaged in many, many conversations about Ellison's work over the decades that haven't "degenerated" into discussing him, and BTW more than a few discussing him have been about what a great guy he is and has been in many, many ways.

But the envious, the resentful and the know-nothings get their licks in pretty dependably, too.

 

[Jan]

Heck, as said above Ellison once said he'd have given away the movie rights to "Soldier" for free so long as he was only asked, but noted science fiction author Harlan Ellison (you've heard of him, right?) recently said that "amateurs" who give away their work for free were starving professional writers and making it impossible to make a living. I doubt Harlan Ellison 2007 is pathetic enough to envy or resent that pissant wuss Harlan Ellison 1984.

Also recently, within the last year, Harlan gave permission to a very small website to post one of his stories online. The total fee? $10.00 Why? Because the person asked.

Jan

 

[David cgc]

Also recently, within the last year, Harlan gave permission to a very small website to post one of his stories online. The total fee? $10.00 Why? Because the person asked.

And? What, am I suddenly supposed to decide it's okay after all to let myself get fucked by over-enthusatic self-starters working for free because Harlan Ellison himself is willing to work for perfunctory respect instead of cash? I'm supposed to ignore his wild, excessive credit-mongering because he only does it when people don't give him respect like he's the damn Godfather? He wouldn't have made a shitty, out-of-nowhere comment about Cormac McCarthy ripping him off if he'd phoned up and said, "Hey, Harl, I'm going to write this book about a couple of guys walking someplace after the end of the world. I know that's your thing after the corpse-fucking one with the talking dog, so is that okay with you?"

This doesn't counteract what I've criticized him for, it just makes him seem mercurial. He's still going around like Charles Guiteau demanding the ambassadorship so obviously owed to him. Bringing up stuff like this doesn't make his accusations seem more reasonable. It just makes them stop looking like an easy way to make money and start looking like he's petulant and insecure.

And no one's even touched the bit about "Ender's Game" and "Starship Troopers." I'm disappointed.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And no one's even touched the bit about "Ender's Game" and "Starship Troopers." I'm disappointed.

What's to discuss?

 

[Jan]

For those interested, the Hollywood Reporter says that the suit's been dropped:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/in-time-harlan-ellison-lawsuit-dropped-267567

Jan

 

[xortex]

I don't blame him. Who the hell would want to take credit for that? He probably got a lump sum under the table (all that really matters). Hope he does a better version of it. That I'll see. It's weird but I knew this was gonna be another rip off.

 

[JoeD80]

Question 1:
Does the hypothetical actually imply that Tolkien was the only influence on Babylon 5?

Well yes actually the way you phrased it; "Based on 'The Lord of the Rings' by J.R.R. Tolkien" was the example, not "influenced by 100s of stories, films, television shows, songs, myths, etc."

Question 2:
Would the hypothetical have been appreciably improved if I had instead said, "I doubt JMS would've been very sanguine if a parade of authors and estates with Ellison's 'moral courage' lined up to get "based on" credits (and residuals) for everything from 'The Lord of the Rings' to 'The Once And Future King,' because God forbid anyone do anything even vaguely similar to a prior work until the author has been dead and buried seventy years."? Probably not.

You were specifically calling out someone who is a friend to Ellison and saying in effect "hey, this guy supporting Ellison is suspect because he could have been sued by Tolkien's estate in the same way." Which comes back to the point of B5 not being a Lord of the Rings story. There's a difference between "standing on the shoulders of giants" and sitting down at the keyboard with the book open.

I don't appreciate manufactured disagreements.

I write what I think. Not gonna change.