Details of Ellison's Repent Harlequin/In Time Lawsuit

[Christopher]

Ellison is working on his own thetrical Adaptation.

The screenplay was completed by JMS several months ago.

Jan

Which is no doubt the main reason for the lawsuit. I'm sure plenty of other movies have had ideas in common with Ellison stories, given how much fiction he's written over the decades. But he hasn't sued them. However, if he's developing a "Ticktockman" movie, then a similar movie coming out just a year or two earlier is direct competition and a financial threat.

(Not sure how that logic applies to the Terminator lawsuit he won way back when, though.)

 

[JoeD80]

Don't have it in front of me because the docs are on my other computer so don't know the exact language but the suit does say the damage would be in the area of the film adaptation since Kilimanjaro had licensed the story to a third party for that purpose and the script has already been completed.

 

[xortex]

Now this is a movie I'm going to see - Harlan's that is. I don't think he was going to sue over Terminator until Camaron put his foot in his mouth and practically forced him too. Guilt will do that to you. Especially since Buck Rogers did a take on it in one it's episodes. Hey, when are we getting a Buck Roger's movie? I loved that series. I didn't at first but either it really grew on me or vice versa. Great stories though and a timeless premise.

 

[Jan]

Ellison is working on his own thetrical Adaptation.

The screenplay was completed by JMS several months ago.

Jan

Which is no doubt the main reason for the lawsuit. I'm sure plenty of other movies have had ideas in common with Ellison stories, given how much fiction he's written over the decades. But he hasn't sued them.

Except that *ideas* cannot be copyrighted, only the execution of them can be. If you read the details of the suit you'll see that there are specific points of similarity named.

However, if he's developing a "Ticktockman" movie, then a similar movie coming out just a year or two earlier is direct competition and a financial threat.

He's not developing a movie, it was optioned by JMS and the script was written by JMS. If anything, it's JMS who's developing a movie.

Harlan protects his work. Always has and hopefully always will. I doubt he'd have acted any differently even if there weren't anything in the works.

Jan

 

[Christopher]

Except that *ideas* cannot be copyrighted, only the execution of them can be. If you read the details of the suit you'll see that there are specific points of similarity named.

I refer you to post #1 of this thread and my reply to it in post #2, as well as my further comments in post #15.

 

[xortex]

It being a coincidence is irrelovant. The story is in the public Domain. Now I would have a hard time proving that I hate Joss Wheden and he used my material for Serenety. Not really.

 

[JRoss]

Finally saw In Time tonight. Could not see the similarities of the two works.

 

[Takeru]

It being a coincidence is irrelovant. The story is in the public Domain. Now I would have a hard time proving that I hate Joss Wheden and he used my material for Serenety. Not really.

Do you really believe that Joss Whedon used ideas from a script some amateur wrote for DS9? What was so special about your story that you and only you could come up with it and something resembling your ideas is obviously inspired by it?

I'm serious, I want details, not just some stuff cryptic stuff about telepathic klingons. If the story is in the public domain anyway you have nothing to lose by posting your super special ideas in detail and comparing them to the "ripped off" parts of Serenity.

 

[Jan]

It being a coincidence is irrelovant. The story is in the public Domain. Now I would have a hard time proving that I hate Joss Wheden and he used my material for Serenety. Not really.

Do you really believe that Joss Whedon used ideas from a script some amateur wrote for DS9? What was so special about your story that you and only you could come up with it and something resembling your ideas is obviously inspired by it?

I'm serious, I want details, not just some stuff cryptic stuff about telepathic klingons. If the story is in the public domain anyway you have nothing to lose by posting your super special ideas in detail and comparing them to the "ripped off" parts of Serenity.

With no disrespect meant toward xortex, it really doesn't seem to me that he's aware of how a script submission would have been handled by DS9. Did he include the standard legal release? If not, the script was returned to him unread. If he did, then the script went to a script reader who would evaluate the script and, if they think the script has merit, prepare a document called coverage which synopsizes the script down to a couple of pages. It's only that coverage that goes to the writing staff. Word is that over 13,000 scripts were submitted for DS9. Few of those would have ever gotten to the point of a coverage document being written and far fewer of the actual scripts would ever reach the writing staff.

All of which makes it unlikely to the point of impossibility that anybody stole anything from him.

I'm also pretty sure he misused the term 'public domain' above. By definition, if a story is in the public domain, anybody can use it for any purpose or adaptation they want but a work only becomes part of the public domain when copyright lapses.

Jan

 

[xortex]

It was called 'the Price of Peace' about the use of amnion energy radiation to calm down the Klingon threat which only made it worse when they found out. an unscrupulous Admiral was aboard and wanted to wipe out the klingons by clueing the the Andorians in on their new found helplessness. Except that he's discovered and the agent leaks out on the Enterpise. It was a 2 page pitch sent in along with others, with another one very similar to the last movie, but not.

You know now that you mention it, I do have it sent to myself. My agent sent it in for DS9 like ages ago and I do particularly hate Joss Whedon. Just saw a picture of him and I can't stand him. Despise his smugness. The assassin is another message of what their lawyer would be like. Just like the high tech theives from my inception pitch ten years ago. Well, you asked.

 

[TemporalFlux]

Now this is a movie I'm going to see - Harlan's that is. I don't think he was going to sue over Terminator until Camaron put his foot in his mouth and practically forced him too.

My understanding is that a witness came forward stating that Cameron openly bragged in a public bar that he used Ellison's work (including a statement of "it's the easiest money I've ever made" or something to that effect). The studio settled before that witness could testify in court.

 

[David cgc]

That's a bit more florid than the versions I've read. The "easiest money" bit is especially suspect, since the similarity Ellison called out takes up about three minutes of screen-time (the bit where Kyle Reese materializes in an alley and runs away from the police).

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

In addition to those casual warnings of similarities from unnamed persons, Ellison also was told by a friend of his,Tracy Torme, that, while visiting the set for The Terminator, he had asked Cameron where he got the story idea. According to Ellison's account of Torme's statement, Cameron replied, “Oh, I ripped off a couple of Harlan Ellison stories.”
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“About a week after my attorney contacted Hemdale, I got a call from the editor of Starlog magazine. ....It turned out Cameron had given an interview to Starlog and, after I began inquiring at Hemdale, [The Terminator producer Gale Anne] Hurd sent Starlog a legal demand to see the interview.” According to Ellison, Gale Anne Hurd then modified Starlog's article on The Terminator. She omitted a quote from Cameron in the article that read, “'Oh, I took a couple of Outer Limits segments.'” The reason that the Starlog editor had contacted Ellison was to provide him with the original version of the article, the one without Gale Anne Hurd's editing. Said Ellison, “At this point we went to Hemdale and to Orion and we said, 'I'm afraid we got him with the smoking gun. Now do you want to do something about this or do you want us to whip your ass in open court? We'd be perfectly happy to do it either way.'” Between the account of Tracy Torme and the Starlog interview, the attorneys for Hemdale and Orion quickly realized that they wanted no part of a lawsuit, by Ellison's accounts. “They took one look at this shit and their attorneys said, 'Settle.'”

Link

This guy later concludes that because most of Terminator doesn't appear to be stolen that the case for plagiarism is a weak one. He doesn't understand how this stuff works, and is making excuses for what he wants to be true.

 

[xortex]

Doesn't he know the Star Trek word for ripping off people? - homage. He could have saved himself a couple of cheeseburgers.

I think it was Ellison himself who said if Camaren would have kept his mouth shut, he would have never noticed a similarity. It bore a direct resemblance to an episode of Buck Rogers though. I think the addition of Ellison's name helped Terminator's credibility more than that writer for Buck Rogers would have.

 

[David cgc]

This guy later concludes that because most of Terminator doesn't appear to be stolen that the case for plagiarism is a weak one. He doesn't understand how this stuff works, and is making excuses for what he wants to be true.

Explain.

The key point of any infringement case is the appropriation of the owner's right to exploit the work. Cameron didn't start selling bootlegged VHS tapes of "Soldier," nor was "Terminator" anywhere near derivative enough to quality as an unauthorized adaptation that would draw away potential viewers of the episode or producers of future adaptations (at least, it wasn't until somebody shot his mouth off and gave people the impression "Soldier" was about an assassin from the future aiming to kill an enemy's ancestor).

That's the criticism of Ellison. It's not about defending Big Business or hating disposable writers or reflexively suckling at the teat of whoever gives us our big bang-bang spectacles. It's about Ellison being an ass and making absurdly broad claims of ownership. He acts like when he writes a story, he's marked his territory on that particular corner of the genre and and the whole category is his personal property for all time.

Harlan Ellison wrote a story about time-traveling enemies having culture-shock in an alley, so now no one else can. Harlan Ellison wrote a story about everyone's days literally being numbered, so no one else can. Harlan Ellison wrote a story about two creatures that talk to each other walking through a post apocalyptic hellscape, so no one else can.

It's an insane standard that no one else holds. Did Robert Heinlein try to stop publication of "Ender's Game" because "Starship Troopers" gave him dibs on kids going through hard-ass future-bootcamp to fight giant grasshoppers? Did Elmore Leonard sue the pants off of Carl Hiaasen because he licked "Wackos in Miami" so it's his and no one else gets to write about it?

What really gets to me is that a lot of Ellison's supporters would not be in the best position if more writers held themselves to his standard of ownership. I doubt JMS would've been very sanguine if he got an injunction that required a "Based on 'The Lord of the Rings' by J.R.R. Tolkien" at the front of each Babylon 5 episode and a percentage of the revenue from each episode to his estate.

 

[Christopher]

^Right. Ellison's always had this bizarre sense of entitlement that practically no other writer shares. Like his 45-year-long temper tantrum about how the producers of Star Trek rewrote his script for "City on the Edge of Forever." Dude, that's what happens when you're a freelancer writing for an ongoing series! It wasn't an anthology, so naturally they had to adjust the script to fit the characters and the universe -- not to mention tweaking it to fit their limited budget, since they couldn't afford to build a whole valley filled with giant talking statues. If Ellison was so unwilling to have his sacred words altered, why did he agree to participate in a collaborative medium such as television to begin with? It's disingenuous.

 

[JoeD80]

He acts like when he writes a story, he's marked his territory on that particular corner of the genre and and the whole category is his personal property for all time.

If one actually talks to him about it one would know he is aware that writers build off of each other all the time and that wasn't his problem at all. He has stated on many occasions that he would have been fine if Cameron had just put Ellison's name in the Special Thanks section and gave him a courtesy call. Instead he heard through back-channels that Cameron had told the Starlog interviewer that Ellison's episode was part of the basis of the film, and Orion tried to keep Ellison out of the screening of the film as well. Since he ended up hearing about everything through back-channels, that's what pissed him off. Orion gave him a one-time payment to settle.

Harlan Ellison wrote a story about time-traveling enemies having culture-shock in an alley, so now no one else can. Harlan Ellison wrote a story about everyone's days literally being numbered, so no one else can. Harlan Ellison wrote a story about two creatures that talk to each other walking through a post apocalyptic hellscape, so no one else can.

The current lawsuit doesn't say "no one else can use such story ideas." The lawsuit isn't about finding a movie that happened to have similarities; specific to this suit is the accusation that certain people knew about the coming adaptation and had access to the material. They are currently identified as Does 1 - 10 but if a case comes of it those people will have to be identified.

What really gets to me is that a lot of Ellison's supporters would not be in the best position if more writers held themselves to his standard of ownership. I doubt JMS would've been very sanguine if he got an injunction that required a "Based on 'The Lord of the Rings' by J.R.R. Tolkien"

Joe's been inspired by a *lot* more than Lord of the Rings. Viewers who only see Tolkien in that story have missed a lot of good books over the years.

If Ellison was so unwilling to have his sacred words altered, why did he agree to participate in a collaborative medium such as television to begin with? It's disingenuous.

Rewriting wasn't his main problem with Trek. He had worked in television before, and with Justman on The Outer Limits, and was just fine with production re-writes there. Roddenberry was his problem with Trek, because he would say one thing and do another. (It's not like Ellison was the only one to notice this. There are stories in Inside Star Trek about Roddenberry's promises to Nichelle Nichols for starring credit and stuff like that.)

 

[xortex]

I don't think Harlan would have sued Camaron at all but chalk one up for the little guy. The expression of ideas is intellectiual property. there has to be some standard but it's very fuzzy like that George Harrison song he was sued over. Both songs were good.

 

[Jan]

Joe's been inspired by a *lot* more than Lord of the Rings. Viewers who only see Tolkien in that story have missed a lot of good books over the years.

Not to mention a good bit of history and mythology...and on and on...

RE: "B5 is really X in disguise" You're all right, and you're all wrong. Is it Lord of the Rings? Dune? The Kennedy story? The saga of Camelot? The Foundation? A brief history of World War II? The Bible? All these and
others have been broached to me by people absolutely sure that this was the model for the series. (And, as an aside, this kind of discussion generally happens only to TV writers; nobody here is doing a panel called "Is Startide Rising Really X in disguise?" This happens to TV writers because somehow it gets assumed that we haven't got an idea in our heads that we didn't swipe from somebody's book. But that's another topic for another time.)

Babylon 5...is a Rohrsharch test. An ink blot created by smashing actors, archetypes, saga-structure, myth and language against a sheet of paper, folding it, and bashing it a few times. When you open it up and look inside, what you see is the saga closest to your heart and your experience.
Because like all the works mentioned a moment ago, B5 draws upon the same wellspring of myth, archetype, symbology, and dime store sociology that feeds
all sagas, from the Illiad on through to the present.

Writers, science fiction writers in particular, are like the beggar in Alladin, who offered new lamps for old...we seize myths that have fallen out of currency and recast them in newer guise, dust them off and hope a genie emerges. Our myths, the myths of Tolkien and Homer, of Heinlein and Mallory, are eternal; they exchange one name for another, cast off one mask and assume the next. If you perceive their presence in Babylon 5, it is because we have
courted the myth, not because we have echoed one of their names from another place. King Lear vanishes into Londo, Cassandra peers out from behind the
eyes of G'Kar, Galahad answers to the name Ivanova, the Oracle at Delphi is now wearing an encounter suit, and Sir Bedevere is...well, that would be telling.

Jan

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

If Ellison was so unwilling to have his sacred words altered, why did he agree to participate in a collaborative medium such as television to begin with?

Calling most television a "collaborative medium" is, for most the participants, an euphemism. It's like calling prostitution "collaborative performance art."

You do get paid pretty well.

When I see someone who's accomplished half of what Ellison has take him to task for any of this I'll pay some attention. Envy and resentment are not interesting.