TOS Nacelles

[CorporalCaptain]

Yes, the visual indications of movement disappear after how many graduation lines pass by? 1...2...3...4...5. Five lines. Like I said, elaborate handwaving is the only way out of this problem. Translation: something far-fetched. They goofed, man, pure and simple. In this episode, for whatever reason, Deck Two just isn't the next deck down from the bridge.

 

[blssdwlf]

What do those graduation lines mean though?

In "Corbomite Maneuver" Kirk goes from sickbay to turbolift and then goes up past 30 lines while talking to the bridge and changes his mind to go change.

In "Amok Time" I counted at least 23 on screen lines go by as they go from the bridge to Deck 5 (and there are lots of gaps for more.)

In "Elaan of Troyius", I counted at least 21 lines as they traveled down to Deck 5 and then a bunch more lines as they traveled horizontally.

In "Where No Man Has Gone Before", the lines were very closely spaced together suggesting a different line arrangement.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Who knows what they mean. If someone volunteers the obvious suggestion that when the car is descending or ascending they are lines representing deck boundaries, then someone else will point out how so and so episode contradicts that idea.

The fact is, the time spent in the elevator is largely a function of how long the conversation takes. At least in The Wrath of Khan, they had Saavik take the trouble to stop the elevator and then went a step further and made fun of the cliché by having the doors open to an irate McCoy. It was a good moment.

In any case, if we want a consistent ship that does not quantum-fluctuate between alternate realities when going from episode to episode, we just kinda have to plug our ears when Spock says "Deck Two" there, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Mytran]

I've always felt that the Turbolift markers are there to provide an indication of direction rather than an accurate demonstration of decks passing by.

In a related note, there are relatively few occasions where we can actually use the time it takes from one location to another to accurately measure potential distances within the ship (since any Turbolift ride can be affected by other cars in the tubes). So, only on occassions where the ship is totally empty (Ultimate Computer, By Any Other Name) so we get any indication of how large the ship really is. But that's just for fun

With regards to the ship having "Deck 1" at the bottom, while it might help ease the issues in Day Of The Dove and the whole "Deck 12" thing, it runs into problems when Kirk's quarters relocate to "Deck 5", as he's back in the Engineering Hull again! Also, Elaan of Troius establish Sick Bay as being on "Deck 5" and "The safest place on the ship". If Deck 5 is in the centre of the saucer that statement makes sense - less so if "Deck 5" is in the Secondary Hull.

And so what if Deck 2 takes a long time to get to, even if below the bridge - maybe there was a traffic jam!

 

[Mytran]

The fact is, the time spent in the elevator is largely a function of how long the conversation takes. At least in The Wrath of Khan, they had Saavik take the trouble to stop the elevator and then went a step further and made fun of the cliché by having the doors open to an irate McCoy. It was a good moment.

I agree. It should be noted that the doors on board are also conversation - sensitive as well, knowing exactly when to open regardless of how close someone stands!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And so what if Deck 2 takes a long time to get to, even if below the bridge - maybe there was a traffic jam!

Or they just took the scenic route!

 

[blssdwlf]

We only saw 5 lines go by and for the duration of the conversation the motion indicator showed no more motion. I could not tell if Spock was holding one of the handles or not. Otherwise what is inconsistent with this scene again?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

We only saw 5 lines go by and for the duration of the conversation the motion indicator showed no more motion. I could not tell if Spock was holding one of the handles or not. Otherwise what is inconsistent with this scene again?

Wrong.

If you'd actually watched the scene, you would know that the motion indicator is no longer on camera once five lines go by. After that, for the rest of the scene in the elevator, the camera alternates between close-ups of Spock and of the Romulan commander. Once it starts up, the elevator-in-motion sound is clearly audible for the whole scene, until it winds down at the end. But now I am just repeating myself.

Why don't we move on to disagreeing about something else? I'm sure in the course of further discussion about nacelles, we will have plenty of opportunity for honest disagreement.

 

[blssdwlf]

I can see the motion indicators in the background. Can you double check?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I've quadruple checked at CBS.com; maybe they cropped the image. I'll check with DVD when I have access to my disk and player.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I can see the indicator bars as well.

 

[Patrickivan]

I always thought they were just nonesense to suggest movement in a specific direction... I mean, even in universe, I never thought there was any point in making note of them because time seemed to go all TARDISy when people got in a TL.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I always thought they were just nonesense to suggest movement in a specific direction... I mean, even in universe, I never thought there was any point in making note of them because time seemed to go all TARDISy when people got in a TL.

True, true... you had guys standing behind there waving flourescent tubes past the frosted window, and they were likely working at "scale."

This is one of those things that we can "mostly ignore." Except, if they're not there, you can assume that the car isn't moving, and if they are there, it's moving SOMEHOW... but you can't really determine where it's going by how the guy behind there is waving his magic wand...

 

[Patrickivan]

Stupid unions... If it wasn't for them, we'd have had cooler bridge displays! Okay- sorry- let's not go there.


I was thinking about that episode (Spock's Brain was it?) where Kirk talked to Scotty about the potential of engines being the size of walnuts, and about the initial concept drawings of the Enterprise noting that the nacelles were the "power units", and about the evidence in the episodes stating that the nacelles were the matter-antimatter reactors, and all of that really solidifies that the Enterprise's engines were indeed in the nacelles. Regardless of other sources of ship power or not, all of that makes it more likely then not to be something we should be able to agree on. The nacelles contained the primary source of power for the warp drive at the minimum, and the ship as a whole at the most.

Big was synomous with power in the 60's. Those big massive nacelles generated a huge amount of energy needed to travel faster then light! The power was dangerous and was kept from the ship. It almost seemed like the warp drive was less technologically advanced then the power generation due to how much was apparently needed. It just screams raw harnessed power when you think about it. You look at the Enterprise in a whole new way when you think of those massive units generating such power!

 

[Captain Robert April]

All this from Jimmy Rugg on the other side of the wall with a spinning coffee can on a stick with a light inside, shining through a slit in the side of the can.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

All this from Jimmy Rugg on the other side of the wall with a spinning coffee can on a stick with a light inside, shining through a slit in the side of the can.

Yep... but are you sure it's a coffee can? I mean, that would work for vertical movement, potentially, but for horizontal? That would be one BIG coffee can! (probably to go along with that big twinkie...)

 

[7thsealord]

I was thinking about that episode (Spock's Brain was it?) where Kirk talked to Scotty about the potential of engines being the size of walnuts,

'Return To Tomorrow', actually.

 

[Albertese]

All this from Jimmy Rugg on the other side of the wall with a spinning coffee can on a stick with a light inside, shining through a slit in the side of the can.

Yep... but are you sure it's a coffee can? I mean, that would work for vertical movement, potentially, but for horizontal? That would be one BIG coffee can! (probably to go along with that big twinkie...)

I'm pretty sure CRA is right about this one. When the lift started moving perpendicularly from it's last direction, he just rotated the can to shine the other direction. Don't worry about the width of the beam; an 8" high coffee can with a slot in the side and a light in the middle should be able to cast a line of light several feet long if held a couple feet away from the screen. If my "back of a notecard" calculations are correct, if you hold the can a foot from the outer wall, the shine would be about two feet long, more than enough for the turbolift indicator.

--Alex

 

[blssdwlf]

We only saw 5 lines go by and for the duration of the conversation the motion indicator showed no more motion. I could not tell if Spock was holding one of the handles or not. Otherwise what is inconsistent with this scene again?

Wrong.

If you'd actually watched the scene, you would know that the motion indicator is no longer on camera once five lines go by. After that, for the rest of the scene in the elevator, the camera alternates between close-ups of Spock and of the Romulan commander. Once it starts up, the elevator-in-motion sound is clearly audible for the whole scene, until it winds down at the end. But now I am just repeating myself.

Why don't we move on to disagreeing about something else? I'm sure in the course of further discussion about nacelles, we will have plenty of opportunity for honest disagreement.

Upon re-watching the DVD I can confirm that you are correct in that the motion indicator is no longer visible after the 5th line moves by. The time that the turbolift begins movement where we see the 5 lines is about 7-8s. The camera changes and for 49s up to the sound of the turbolift stopping we are not able to see what the turbolift is doing via the motion indicator. Oddly, none of the handles were held/touched in the turbolift.

For comparison, 2 episodes earlier in "Elaan of Troyius", Kirk takes a turbolift from the bridge to Deck 5. From the start of motion down till where the motion indicator stops moving is 25s. 9s transpires where there is a lull (no motion) before the horizontal lines starts up indicating a lateral motion which goes on for 27s (with a side conversation with Scotty) before stopping. The turbolift door remains closed for another 13s while Kirk and Elaan talk. Kirk is holding the lift handle nearest the door/intercom more or less the entire time.

Still, we are left with in "The Enterprise Incident" a period of time where we have no idea what the turbolift is doing other than being powered up (because we can't see the motion indicator).

So what is inconsistent with this scene again? Is it that you felt that they shouldn't be standing around in the turbolift for 50s having a private conversation and should have exited and talked in the corridor?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In The Enterprise Incident, it doesn't make sense for Deck Two to be the deck immediately below the bridge. It's just too implausible.