Why didn't Theiss find a shirt that photographed green, then.

[plynch]

Given 1: the TOS normal command tunics were greenish, and that was the intention. Theiss said it; I've seen one; they were greenish.

Given 2: The velour ones, especially, but even the S3 polys, photographed as gold.

Question: Why not, early on, when viewing actual filmed footage, switch to a material that showed up on film the way they wanted (green)?

Anyone have any actual knowledge on this (as opposed to conjecture, which I can do on my own, thank you)?

Thanks.

 

[Phoenicianknight]

Given 1: the TOS normal command tunics were greenish, and that was the intention. Theiss said it; I've seen one; they were greenish.

Given 2: The velour ones, especially, but even the S3 polys, photographed as gold.

Question: Why not, early on, when viewing actual filmed footage, switch to a material that showed up on film the way they wanted (green)?

Anyone have any actual knowledge on this (as opposed to conjecture, which I can do on my own, thank you)?

Thanks.

Because Comman Gold sound so much better that Command Light Green.

 

[plynch]

That's funny. It WOULD be command green, then, wouldn't it. And in NextGen it woulda been ops green. Weird.

Maybe they thought the coolness of velour (hipness) outweighed getting the color right. It came out green with the two casual shirts and the dress tunic. Whatever.

 

[7thsealord]

I would imagine that cost would be the major reason why they didn't change the material. I recall in 'The Making Of Star Trek' that there are references to "that rotten velour" (chosen originally because of the attractive sheen it had on TV) and to plans to find a replacement material.

Given just how tight TOS's budget was (even before Season 3's cuts), they probably would have needed for all current uniforms to be literally disintegrating before ANY money could be shaken loose for replacements.

 

[backstept]

in TNG and on, the science blue kinda turned turquoise or teal instead of blue, and a straight up green for ops would have been too close to the 'blue'

 

[KirksStuntMan]

BTW, whatever happened to Kirk's wraparound tunic?

It seems to have disappeared around the middle of the 2nd season.

 

[number6]

His midsection didn't disappear.

 

[Green Shirt]

I would imagine that cost would be the major reason why they didn't change the material.

Since it appears they bought enough of the stuff to last two seasons, they probably couldn't get rid of it even if they wanted to.

I can't imagine the guys across the street, like Bonanza or Hogan's Heroes, would have any use for it.

 

[Therin of Andor]

in TNG and on, the science blue kinda turned turquoise or teal instead of blue

On purpose. They were avoiding the pure blue colour for the same reason Science switched to orange (from blue in TOS) for ST: TMP. If they were needing to use bluescreen, that TOS blue was problematic, and a blue circle section of Spock's woven insignia might have chroma-keyed out.

 

[Redfern]

You know, it would have made sense from a promotional perspective if command division had been more solidly green. Then the division colors would have corresponded to the color phosphers in those TVs RCA was selling, red, blue and green.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[Green Shirt]

You know, it would have made sense from a promotional perspective if command division had been more solidly green. Then the division colors would have corresponded to the color phosphers in those TVs RCA was selling, red, blue and green.

Sincerely,

Bill

IIRC that was the idea they were going for - using the primary colors of light. Too bad the little green dots didn't do their job properly.

 

[plynch]

As to where Kirk's wraparound went; there's #1 with the scrambled eggs to distinguish id-Kirk from superego-Kirk on Enemy Within. Then there's #2 with braids on sleeve cuffs like normal. Somewhere on this board I recently read they were rendered unnecessary in S3 due to new, better-fitting polyesters and Shatner being in better shape throughout. Can't think of what thread, sorry.

 

[jayrath]

Boys and girls, it's really not a matter of costume color. If you want real answers, you have to go to the director of photography, Jerry Finnerman -- who was instructed to paint with colored light.

First of all, the material was never green. It was heather -- gold with a little blue, nudging it into the green spectrum, and especially so in certain lighting.

Everyone acts like the set was lit with pure white light. No (and there isn't such a thing, anyway). It was lit theatrically, with all sorts of colors mixing together to make up a fuller spectrum. True in theater, especially true in early color TV, and still true today. You don't use "scoops" (lighting instruments with bland flat light) except in rehearsal, because a) they're cooler, and b) they draw less power.

Then take into account film stock, any use of filters, color manipulation in the printing lab -- remember the story about the slave girl coming out pink because they didn't know the stand-in was supposed to be green?

I suppose people are looking for "canon" color. Well, that was what appeared on the TV screen. It's not just a quality or color of the fabric -- it's light, printing and everything else that goes into the mix, and the result is precisely what the photographer intended. If we see it as gold, it's because it was meant to appear that way.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It was heather -- gold with a little blue, nudging it into the green spectrum, and especially so in certain lighting.

Gold with a little blue makes green. But velour also has a nape. Brush it one way and it looks one shade, brush it the other way and it looks quite different. My grandmother used to have velour cushions that were both red or brown, depending on direction of the nape.

If we see it as gold, it's because it was meant to appear that way.

No, we see it as gold because it photographed that way, much to their surprise, but they left it that way, rather than try to tweak the lighting/printing every episode, adding to costs/time.

 

[plynch]

Boys and girls, it's really not a matter of costume color. If you want real answers, you have to go to the director of photography, Jerry Finnerman -- who was instructed to paint with colored light.

First of all, the material was never green. It was heather -- gold with a little blue, nudging it into the green spectrum, and especially so in certain lighting.

Everyone acts like the set was lit with pure white light. No (and there isn't such a thing, anyway). It was lit theatrically, with all sorts of colors mixing together to make up a fuller spectrum. True in theater, especially true in early color TV, and still true today. You don't use "scoops" (lighting instruments with bland flat light) except in rehearsal, because a) they're cooler, and b) they draw less power.

Then take into account film stock, any use of filters, color manipulation in the printing lab -- remember the story about the slave girl coming out pink because they didn't know the stand-in was supposed to be green?

I suppose people are looking for "canon" color. Well, that was what appeared on the TV screen. It's not just a quality or color of the fabric -- it's light, printing and everything else that goes into the mix, and the result is precisely what the photographer intended. If we see it as gold, it's because it was meant to appear that way.

They weren't heather. I've seen one. Chartreuse. 1960s yellow-green. Like two of the smileys to my right as I type this.

The dress command tunic and casuals all photographed green.

I guess I buy people's cost-related guesses above. You'd think they woulda done preliminary testing to make sure they photographed green as they wanted before buying reams of the material. Guess not.

 

[Gary7]

Yeah, they had all kinds of complications with photography back then. With the digital world, we see the results instantly and can compensate.

 

[Maurice]

From the TOS in glorious . . . black and white thread.

“It was one of those film stock things;” Theiss states, “it photographed one way - burnt orange or a gold. But in reality was another; the command shirts were definitely green.”

A STITCH IN TIME
by James Magda, 1988

That's the only quote I know of off-hand that has Theiss discussing the color problem.

 

[plynch]

The evidence is clear they were green when seen by the human eye under normal lights.

I just find it odd they didn't run tests in 1964/5, see they were photographing as mustard-gold, and switch materials.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Of course, the real fun was when they did get that double knit material, the aforementioned budget issues forced them to keep on using those velour shirts for the supporting cast and background extras (take a look at "The Enterprise Incident" and compare Kirk and Chekov; Shatner is in the new uniform, Koenig is still in the old velour). In short, they still had to have the color between the old and new command tunics match, at least on camera.

Which, I'm sure, was all kinds of fun for Theiss and his staff.

 

[plynch]

The S3 appear greener on my set, normal DVDs, than S1 and 2. I'm headed ovr to TrekCore and look at screenshots from that ep to compare. Fun!