Who is really the most powerful DC superhero?

[Mr Silver]

Superman can alter the timeline. The ability to change the past - present - future and know outside of the time continum what's happening and have the ability to change it I'd think would make any superhero instantly the most powerful.

Superman is also forbidden to interfere (a personal restriction at the urging of Jor-El, something highlighted in the first movie but ultimately ignored) with the timeline unless something has been done to alter the timeline - in which case he'll interfere to correct things.

I don't think he can alter the timeline as he chooses because he doesn't have an awareness of the continuum like you suggest. If he did, then he could simply correct every mistake and know the outcome to every decision before he has made it.

In the second movie - as it was intended before Richard Lester took over. Superman's turning back time in order to save Lois Lane and stop both missiles in the first movie, caused the release of the Kryptonian villains from the Phantom Zone. This was a consequence of his actions and even though this was later rendered moot by Superman turning back time again, (which I don't like because it suggests that he can turn back time whenever he feels like it) it showed that he was unaware of the chain of events that would follow an alteration in the timeline.

I do think that Superman is perfectly capable of turning back or travelling back in time, but I think that he avoids doing it because it's unpredictable and it breaks the rules that he's imposed upon himself.

 

[Skellington]

[URL="Shuster & Siegel had it right from page one."]Shuster & Siegel had it right from page one.[/URL]

 

[Kai "the spy"]

You know, Batman ever beating Superman is simply bullshit. He can't even outsmart him, because Superman really is more intelligent.
Intelligence equals creativity plus speed plus memory.
Superman has a perfect memory, is among the fastest beings on Earth, and pretty much has to have quite a bit of creativity, seeing as he's a writer (though Clark Kent writing fiction is not canon in all interpretations, his crime novels were mentioned in the post-Crisis era, especially by Joe Kelly).

So, Superman is very smart, smarter than any human without superspeed could ever hope to be.

The idea of Superman being beat by Batman pretty much originated in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, and that was only possible because Miller's Superman was very dumbed-down. But that's kind of Miller's way of making Batman look cool, by making any other superhero look stupid.

Things really got out of hand when Grant Morrison made Batman unbeatable in his JLA run. Although Morrison never pitched Batman vs. Superman, to my knowledge, because his Superman also tended to be über-powerful.

 

[DarthTom]

I do think that Superman is perfectly capable of turning back or travelling back in time, but I think that he avoids doing it because it's unpredictable and it breaks the rules that he's imposed upon himself.

Could be, but like in Trek it's a plot device that is used to solve 'problems,' in the storyline to be later completely forgotten about.

I've always hated writers that use short cuts as we often see in Trek than manifest its self there as the magical engineering solution of the week to be fogotten about.

In Superman's case this superpower is only explained away through leaps.

In any case, I stand by my asertain that any being that can time travel makes that being the most powerful automatically by default because they can correct mistakes by keep going back.

 

[Trekker4747]

Saying or suggesting Batman is the (or one of the) most powerful DC superhero is just rampant Batman fanboism hyperbole at work.

Batman is awesome don't get me wrong, but let us be honest he's not a "super"hero. He's a man in a suit with a lot of neat toys. Quite capable, yes, but considering a 'roided up luchedor took him out, Superman could do it without even trying.

 

[DarthTom]

Saying or suggesting Batman is the (or one of the) most powerful DC superhero is just rampant Batman fanboism hyperbole at work.

Batman is awesome don't get me wrong, but let us be honest he's not a "super"hero. He's a man in a suit with a lot of neat toys. Quite capable, yes, but considering a 'roided up luchedor took him out, Superman could do it without even trying.

Exactly. Bruce Wayne's wealth enables him to have the latest gadgets on the block to fight the bad guys but he has no superpowers.

Can any of the DC comic characters read people's minds. That IMO is in the same league in terms of powers with superman's strength. Any super hero that could read minds would also be a formidable opponent.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

^So, Martian Manhunter?

 

[Trekker4747]

Can any of the DC comic characters read people's minds.

Batman can, he has a mind-reading device on his belt. He'd just need time to prepare.

In seriousness, I would suspect in some interpretations Wonder Woman when she has someone entangled in her lasso.

 

[Mr Silver]

^So, Martian Manhunter?

That is again dependant on how fast Superman can actually think. If his thinking is faster than Martian Manhunter - in the sense that MM is unable to make sense of the speed that Superman's thoughts are processing, then surely that neutralises his mind reading capablilities?

Or what if Superman decides to think in a language that Martian Manhunter doesn't understand? That is the definitive disadvantage for mindreaders - when their subject is thinking in a language they don't understand.

 

[Trekker4747]

^So, Martian Manhunter?

That is again dependant on how fast Superman can actually think. If his thinking is faster than Martian Manhunter - in the sense that MM is unable to make sense of the speed that Superman's thoughts are processing, then surely that neutralises his mind reading capablilities?

Or what if Superman decides to think in a language that Martian Manhunter doesn't understand? That is the definitive disadvantage for mindreaders - when their subject is thinking in a language they don't understand.

If they could red the person mind, couldn't they read that's persons thoughts and feelings no matter what language? I mean if you think of, say, a gun. It doesn't matter what word you call it you're still going to picture a gun in your head.

 

[Mr Silver]

If they could red the person mind, couldn't they read that's persons thoughts and feelings no matter what language? I mean if you think of, say, a gun. It doesn't matter what word you call it you're still going to picture a gun in your head.

Depends on the level of telepathy, if it's just reading what a person is thinking and not viewing their mental images and emotions then thinking in a language that the reader cannot understand is a strong defense.

But even with the ability to comprehend emotions and view mental imagery, thinking in an unfamiliar language could still be a valid tactic, if only to confuse the reader. Hypothetically, if the subject were to write down various tactics in a language that the reader cannot comprehend before the encounter and then visualise the written words during the encounter, it might actually work.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know, Batman ever beating Superman is simply bullshit. He can't even outsmart him, because Superman really is more intelligent.

If superman is so smart how come he hasn't out smarted Lex Luthor?

Seriously if a mere mortal is no match for Superman, how come Luthor who is a mere mortal gets away with the stuff he pulls.

 

[Mr Silver]

You know, Batman ever beating Superman is simply bullshit. He can't even outsmart him, because Superman really is more intelligent.

If superman is so smart how come he hasn't out smarted Lex Luthor?

He has many times, but Luthor keeps coming back and that really seems to be his advantage over Superman. That and the creative methods that Luthor comes up with in order to pose a challenge to the man of steel.

Where Superman has limits, Luthor has none and that serves him in the sense that he will do whatever is necessary to defeat Superman. On the other hand, Superman has to work within the confines of his rules which usually work against him because the likes of Lex Luthor know that Superman won't kill them and they use that to their advantage.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know, Batman ever beating Superman is simply bullshit. He can't even outsmart him, because Superman really is more intelligent.

If superman is so smart how come he hasn't out smarted Lex Luthor?

He has many times, but Luthor keeps coming back and that really seems to be his advantage over Superman. That and the creative methods that Luthor comes up with in order to pose a challenge to the man of steel.

Where Superman has limits, Luthor has none and that serves him in the sense that he will do whatever is necessary to defeat Superman. On the other hand, Superman has to work within the confines of his rules which usually work against him because the likes of Lex Luthor know that Superman won't kill them and they use that to their advantage.

And Batman couldn't do this how exactly?

I'm pretty sure his anti Justice League countermeasures were LETHAL. Not to mention that in addition to killing Darkside when during the stoyline that introduced the pre NuDC Supergirl Batman mangaed to get Darkside to back down by threatening to blow up the planet they were on becuase Darkside believed Batman was the only hero with the guts to actually do it.

Plus Alan Scott could kick Superman's ass and I think he like Batman more.

Also on that note the most powerful superhero is the Bruce Wayne from Earth-32. Where he has Batman's skilsl and a green lantern power ring.

 

[stonester1]

Mindreader...Saturn Girl of the Legion.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The idea of Superman being beat by Batman pretty much originated in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, and that was only possible because Miller's Superman was very dumbed-down. But that's kind of Miller's way of making Batman look cool, by making any other superhero look stupid.

SPOILERS of The Dark Knight Returns in this post.

This wasn't my interpretation of TDKR at all. Superman wasn't dumbed down. One could argue that he was naive, but I don't think that nails it either. The issue with Superman in TDKR was that he did not place himself above legitimate human authority.

The civilian authority had put its foot down to put an end to superhero vigilantisms. Superman made a deal with the government for the greater good so that he could continue to save lives, as long as he did it invisibly, and as long as he stayed in the chain of command under the President, to serve his country as a soldier and a weapon.

When Superman follows orders to arrest Batman, he does not intend simply to kill him. Superman's self-restraint, plus his exhaustion from just coming out of a nuclear explosion, give Bruce the tactical edge to spring his trap. But Bruce doesn't win the fight either; neither of them win. By the time the soldiers get to crime alley, Bruce is unconscious, as Bruce had intended.

In the end, Clark realizes that by faking his death, Bruce has agreed with Clark to remain invisible, and Clark understands that Bruce only intends to act for the greater good. After all, they were once friends for a reason. In the end, they still are.

The actual fight in crime alley between the two was a distraction engineered by Bruce, just so he could fake his death. But he also wanted to teach Clark a lesson about who's side he was on, and why Clark blindly following orders was really a bad thing. Mission accomplished, Bruce made his point, and Clark agreed. Who could have won was irrelevant. Neither desired to kill the other; it would have been out of character. At different points in the fight, each had the upper hand and "could have" won by killing the other.

 

[Saga]

i like Batman...but man, his fan-aura has just grown to insane levels the past ten years or so. kinda want to put some of the blame on Morrison's run of JLA.

haven't read all eight or so pages of this thread but i saw someone mentioned The Spectre. good choice. to that list of powerful DC heroes i'd add Mon El (or whatever he's calling himself now) and Sodam Yat. Martian Manhunter is an underrated character. don't count out Captain Marvel either. yeah, sometimes he seems to be on Wonder Woman's level...other times he's as powerful as Superman.

 

[Set Harth]

At different points in the fight, each had the upper hand and "could have" won by killing the other.

Was there really a point in that fight where Wayne could have killed Superman?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

At different points in the fight, each had the upper hand and "could have" won by killing the other.

Was there really a point in that fight where Wayne could have killed Superman?

OK, good question. I honestly don't know.

But I'd like to think that if, after Oliver did his thing, he had pulled out his .45 and started going blam! blam! ..., or used a Claymore on Clark's chest, that yeah, something like that would have done it. Instead, he just started punching and stomping.

He did draw blood and left one or more bruises, so that tells me he was mortally vulnerable. YMMV.

 

[Anwar]

Superman had already been massively weakened in TDK by the time he and Bruce fought. He'd been injured deflecting a nuclear missile and the dirt cloud in the atmosphere cut him off from the Sun. He had to absorb the photo-synthesized solar energy from a forest to regain some small level of strength (that was rapidly being used up from that point on).

So Miller took pains to actually depower Superman to like 1/10 his normal level before he fought Bruce.