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Star Wars: The Clone Wars S4

It was a lot of fun and quite an adventure hopping from place to place. I read someone compare the episode to Star Trek and I can see it. It certainly had a dark sense of humor with Artoo squashing the leader to death. Threepio's crash-course in democracy was good too. Add on top of that the nice Threepio/Artoo moment and Wolffe's reaction to the droids at at the end and you have a winner.

Looks like they have a four-part epic coming up in two weeks.
 
I thought it was pretty fun episode. It was definitely one of their crazier episodes, but sometime crazy is fun, and this was one of those times.
 
what do the jedi have aginst commander wolf?
that poor, poor bastard.
all so this one kinda reminded me of gulliver's travels.

:guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw::guffaw:
 
The latest episode was really wonky. I sort of liked it just for how odd it was.

And this is a show for kids? You've got a pretty overt anti-democracy message. You've got droid tyranny over organics, followed by organic genocide against droids. Followed by pirates getting slaughtered.

Don't get me wrong, I like how dark the show has gotten, and I had to laugh at R2 and C3PO destroying the government of every group they came across.

They weren't willing to have the Y-wings engines kill the rest of the little people, I guess there are still limits to how dark they can go.
 
It's not a show aimed at really young kids but I assume their main target audience is between 13-21? I'm sure those kids younger than that watch it with their parents. I do agree though it is dark and is supposed to be getting darker as we progress towards Revenge of the Sith. The tone of the series has definitely changed since the film came out.
 
According to Lucas the Senate comes back after ROTJ, which is framed as a "happy ending". As we've seen on the show, alien monarchies mean that the planet can be handed over to the Separatists without popular consent.

Democracy tends to suck in practice but is still better than the alternative.
 
According to Lucas the Senate comes back after ROTJ, which is framed as a "happy ending". As we've seen on the show, alien monarchies mean that the planet can be handed over to the Separatists without popular consent.

And the Senate made Palpatine Emperor For Life who in the EU went on to comitt strings of atrocities that made Grievous look like a Care Bear. There really isn't much practical difference between an alien monarch and the Senate. The monarchs certainly showed more resistance to the Separatists than the Senate ever did to Palpatine.
 
And the Senate made Palpatine Emperor For Life who in the EU went on to comitt strings of atrocities that made Grievous look like a Care Bear.

You don't even need to go to the EU for that. But we've had similar unfortunate elections in real life. Does that mean democracy itself should be thrown out? To be replaced by what, exactly? It seems notable that the Jedi protagonists still seem to believe in the idea of democracy after the ascension of the Emperor. Similarly, if TCW reflects Lucas' views, and Lucas is pro-democracy, then how can TCW be anti-democracy? Is Filoni the one with the anti-democracy views?
 
I try not to make the mistake of assuming a writer's political beliefs based on the fictional stories they tell. I do not know George Lucas or his personal views.

BUT, I think it would be easy to construct a compelling argument that Star Wars has a fairly overt anti-democratic message. I don't even need to write it myself, David Brin already did that years ago for Salon.

http://www.salon.com/1999/06/15/brin_main/

The full article is quite good, but I'll quote my favorite bits.

Anyway, I make a good living writing science-fiction novels and movies. So “Star Wars” ought to be a great busman’s holiday, right?

One of the problems with so-called light entertainment today is that somehow, amid all the gaudy special effects, people tend to lose track of simple things, like story and meaning. They stop noticing the moral lessons the director is trying to push. Yet these things matter.

By now it’s grown clear that George Lucas has an agenda, one that he takes very seriously. After four “Star Wars” films, alarm bells should have gone off, even among those who don’t look for morals in movies. When the chief feature distinguishing “good” from “evil” is how pretty the characters are, it’s a clue that maybe the whole saga deserves a second look.

Just what bill of goods are we being sold, between the frames?


  • Elites have an inherent right to arbitrary rule; common citizens needn’t be consulted. They may only choose which elite to follow.
  • “Good” elites should act on their subjective whims, without evidence, argument or accountability.
  • Any amount of sin can be forgiven if you are important enough.
  • True leaders are born. It’s genetic. The right to rule is inherited.
  • Justified human emotions can turn a good person evil.
and maybe some of that does trickle in from Lucas...

Lucas defends his elitist view, telling the New York Times, “That’s sort of why I say a benevolent despot is the ideal ruler. He can actually get things done. The idea that power corrupts is very true and it’s a big human who can get past that.”

In other words a royal figure or demigod, anointed by fate. (Like a billionaire moviemaker?)

Lucas often says we are a sad culture, bereft of the confidence or inspiration that strong leaders can provide.
and more on topic,

Having said all that, let me again acknowledge that “Star Wars” harks to an old and very, very deeply human archetype. Those who listened to Homer recite the “Iliad” by a campfire knew great drama. Achilles could slay a thousand with the sweep of a hand — as Darth Vader murders billions with the press of a button — but none of those casualties matters next to the personal saga of a great one. The slaughtered victims are mere minions. Extras, without families or hopes to worry about shattering. Spear-carriers. Only the demigod’s personal drama is important.

Thus few protest the apotheosis of Darth Vader — nee Anakin Skywalker — in “Return of the Jedi.”
To put it in perspective, let’s imagine that the United States and its allies managed to capture Adolf Hitler at the end of the Second World War, putting him on trial for war crimes. The prosecution spends months listing all the horrors done at his behest. Then it is the turn of Hitler’s defense attorney, who rises and utters just one sentence:

“But, your honors … Adolf did save the life of his own son!”
Gasp!

The prosecutors blanch in chagrin. “We didn’t know that! Of course all charges should be dismissed at once!”
The allies then throw a big parade for Hitler, down the avenues of Nuremberg.

It may sound silly, but that’s exactly the lesson taught by “Return of the Jedi,” wherein Darth Vader is forgiven all his sins, because he saved the life of his own son.
This article was written shortly after TPM came out, but AotC and RotS certainly haven't weakened the argument.

So I guess I should not be surprised that immediately after R2 and C3PO smash a dictatorship and establish a democracy that it descends into comic chaos.
 
Lucas defends his elitist view, telling the New York Times, “That’s sort of why I say a benevolent despot is the ideal ruler. He can actually get things done. The idea that power corrupts is very true and it’s a big human who can get past that.”

Wow. You want to talk about a scary POV.

GL does seem obsessed with monarchs, elected and otherwise.
 
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Caliburn24 said:
BUT, I think it would be easy to construct a compelling argument that Star Wars has a fairly overt anti-democratic message. I don't even need to write it myself, David Brin already did that years ago for Salon.

I don't think David Brin is a good place to look for "compelling arguments" related to SW. This is, after all, the high priest of the "Yoda lied" tea party... except there's that pesky fact that Yoda didn't lie. In fact, Brin sees Yoda as tantamount to a Sith and the chief villain of the saga. You can try to argue that Brin isn't wrong about the political message of SW, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that he isn't fundamentally confused about who the "good guys" are.

Brin said:
By now it’s grown clear that George Lucas has an agenda, one that he takes very seriously.

It's certainly grown clear that someone has an agenda.

Brin said:
It may sound silly, but that’s exactly the lesson taught by “Return of the Jedi,” wherein Darth Vader is forgiven all his sins, because he saved the life of his own son.

"Is the lesson what the teacher teaches, or what the student learns?"

First of all, Darth Vader isn't absolved of sin. That assertion still fails to become true no matter how often it gets repeated.

But more importantly, Brin's conveniently leaving out something pretty crucial here ( and probably not by accident ). Was Anakin's central act merely "saving the life of his own son", or was there perhaps something else going on? And what would have been the expected consequences of that something else?

Analogy epic fail.

Caliburn24 said:
This article was written shortly after TPM came out, but AotC and RotS certainly haven't weakened the argument.

They wouldn't need to; the "argument" is already weak enough on its own, being a revisionist rant.
 
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I haven't read Brin and Stover's Star Wars On Trial book, so I obviously don't know the entirety of Brin's arguments against Star Wars.

But from his online essays and stuff he seems to think the saga would have been better if it Kenobi and Vader had been conspiring against Palpatine and Yoda(That being the reason Luke is raised by Anakin's relatives, Vader allowing Luke to destroy the first Deathstar etc.). And Brin does have a tough time letting go of that idea and the subset of it which casts Yoda as a villain of sorts. It also ties back into Vader saving Luke, which as already pointed out is one of his bugaboos about the series as a whole.

So yeah, Brin is certainly guilty of having a bias and agenda(dirty SW and ST books taking up space on bookstores shelves, oh the horror).

None of those things make the Star Wars universe any more democracy friendly however. We still have monarchies in abundance, lack of anything resembling a free press, a military that is conscripted before birth(and for their entire lives apparently). A powerful quasi-military order that is accountable to no one. Lack of anything resembling a middle class. The list is endless.

It certainly doesn't look like a pro-democracy universe to me
 
We don't really know how free the press is. It has an extremely limited presence in the films, being represented solely by some hovering camera robots that can be seen zipping around during the Senate scenes. In EU we know there's a Holonet. It's probably safe to assume it's not free under the Empire, but we see no specific indication that freedom of the press was limited in pre-Empire or post-Empire days.
 
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