Enough with Chekov, how big a deal was Sulu on the bridge?

[Elder Knight]

It probably bothered any World War II veterans who might catch an episode or two, but that war was still 20 years ago at that time. Public perception of Japan was changing, what with their products slowly gaining favour in North America.

People soon forget for the most part, just notice how quickly the russians were no longer on people's radars shortly after the dissolution of the soviet union by the early 90's.

A japanese character in the late 60's was not as much a potential minefield as a Korean character, or especially a Vietnamese one.

You want controversy? Try to imagine ST: Enterprise introducing an arab main character mid-way through its first season... (for those who don't remember, ENTERPRISE launched on UPN in September 2001)...

George Takei had already starred in a controversial (and rarely-shown) episode of The Twilight Zone, one which dealt specifically with left-over antagonism from WW-II.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734637/

 

[TOSalltheway]

"I know that Shatner was not too happy to have Chekov aboard. He was critical of Koenigs' attempt at a Russian accent. It's kind of funny that Shatner, Nimoy, and Koenig are all Jewish, but none of them lobbied for a Jewish crewman on the Enterprise"

Hopefully by the 23rd century we have put such nonsense as religion behind us.

 

[erastus25]

[Roddenberry] didn't have any crew members identify to a certain belief system.

Angela Martine was apparently either Catholic or Episcopalian, because she was crossing herself as part of her marriage ceremony.

Cool, I never noticed that!

 

[KirksStuntMan]

Hopefully by the 23rd century we have put such nonsense as religion behind us.

I guess Shatner was stuck in the 20th century then, because he was the driving force behind ST:V and the search for "God".

More sort of off topic, but the "god" they found in ST:V looked more like a homeless bum than a superior being to me.

 

[C.E. Evans]

But this was barely 20 years since the end of WWII, since the end of internment. Was Sulu recognised as a Japanese character by those who watched Star Trek? What was the general feeling in the US to having a Japanese character featuring predominantly on a prime time show? Was it as contraversial an addition to the cast as Chekov would be a year later?

Or had the antagonism of the war years become a distant memory at this point. Was it a non issue?

I don't think he was recognized specifically as Japanese by the audience nor was he intended to be. "Sulu" is a name associated geographically with the Philippines, obviously a very US-identified part of Asia. He did have the samurai experience in "Shore Leave," but I think his national origin was kept purposely vague.

Yeah, Sulu could claim to have had early Japanese ancestors in his family, but after 300 years or so, he probably was essentially American (or Pan-Asian at the least), IMO. That would explain why his name isn't "Suru Hikaru."

A group of Aussie fans once took George Takei to our regular, favourite, inner city restaurant, The Philippino (now long defunct). During the night, we realised we'd sat George under a big wall banner that had a map of the Philippines on it, and in big letters off the coast, right above his head, the map was marked "SULU SEA".

Cue the sound of a dying seal (aka as George Takei laughing).

"Oh my."

Funny how some things work out.

 

[KirksStuntMan]

Angela Martine was apparently either Catholic or Episcopalian, because she was crossing herself as part of her marriage ceremony.

I must have seen a different version of BOT. I just watched it out of curiosity, and she never crossed herself. She kneels at the alter and closes her eyes though.

BTW, what is that fuzzy thing on her head supposed to be? It looks like a road kill Tribble.

 

[RandyS]

But thinking about the Cold War with Russia it was quite intense at times during that period so I'm surprised that the show had gotten away with having a Russian at the helm of starship albeit fictional.

During the lead-up to one of ST's big anniversaries, the then-ST Office actually did a microfilm search through back-issues of Pravda, since the media often reports that Chekov was added to ST as a result of an actual review/letter that embarrassed Roddenberry re the omission of Russians, the Earth's first space explorers, in his original multiracial crew.

No article was found, but it may have been a private letter to Roddenberry from someone at Pravda, or yet another one of those GR anecdotes that grew with the telling.

Walter Koenig has been saying for years that that story was complete bullshit. Chekov was created to appeal to the teenage audience. The Monkees were big at that time, remember.

The Pravda thing was just another Rodenberry fabrication.

 

[RandyS]

I didn't think sulu was brought aboard as a Japanese, rather gene just wanted someone to represent the Asian population. What's more Sulu does have a 1st name = hikaru.

Yeah, but that name didn't appear until the 1979 TMP novelization. And was never heard on screen until TUC in 1991. Back in the 60's, he was simply Sulu.

 

[Nerys Myk]

By the mid Sixties, the antagonism toward Japan had died down. America had bases in Japan and servicemen were becoming enraptured with the culture and the people. My Dad served several tours of duty in Japan after the war and took the family with him on two of them. The Japanese were also a strong ally of ours in the Cold War.

 

[CoveTom]

Yeah, Sulu could claim to have had early Japanese ancestors in his family, but after 300 years or so, he probably was essentially American (or Pan-Asian at the least), IMO. That would explain why his name isn't "Suru Hikaru."

Well, in TVH, Sulu explicitly says that he was born in San Francisco. So his origins in America are canon. Also, there was a scene scripted for that film, but ultimately not filmed due to problems with the child actor, that would have established that Sulu's great great great grandfather, and his family, lived in San Francisco as well. So that would mean that although Sulu is of Japanese descent, his family has been American for hundreds of years.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, Sulu could claim to have had early Japanese ancestors in his family, but after 300 years or so, he probably was essentially American (or Pan-Asian at the least), IMO. That would explain why his name isn't "Suru Hikaru."

Well, in TVH, Sulu explicitly says that he was born in San Francisco. So his origins in America are canon. Also, there was a scene scripted for that film, but ultimately not filmed due to problems with the child actor, that would have established that Sulu's great great great grandfather, and his family, lived in San Francisco as well. So that would mean that although Sulu is of Japanese descent, his family has been American for hundreds of years.

Weren't they in Chinatown?

 

[C.E. Evans]

Yeah, Sulu could claim to have had early Japanese ancestors in his family, but after 300 years or so, he probably was essentially American (or Pan-Asian at the least), IMO. That would explain why his name isn't "Suru Hikaru."

Well, in TVH, Sulu explicitly says that he was born in San Francisco. So his origins in America are canon. Also, there was a scene scripted for that film, but ultimately not filmed due to problems with the child actor, that would have established that Sulu's great great great grandfather, and his family, lived in San Francisco as well. So that would mean that although Sulu is of Japanese descent, his family has been American for hundreds of years.

Exactly the unfilmed scene I was thinking of.

Weren't they in Chinatown?

It wasn't specifically said, IIRC, but it was presumably in a commercial area within walking distance of Goilden Gate Park.

 

[Doug Otte]

Back to the original question:
I just watched the BD of Breakfast at Tiffany's over the weekend. There's an extra in which Asian Americans talk about the despicable portrayal of Mr. Yunioshi by Mickey Rooney. It also goes in depth about how Hollywood has portrayed Asians over the decades. Several of the interviewees, in the context of how that portrayal began changing in the 60s, mentioned how their families crowded around the TV to see Sulu. They were amazed and proud at finally seeing a character whose ethnicity wasn't pointed out; he was a capable crewmember just like everyone else.

Interestingly, because it's a Paramount BD and they produced the extra, they showed several clips of Sulu from ST VI, but none from the TV series. I guess they didn't want to pay CBS for the rights.

Doug

 

[A beaker full of death]

Roddenberry has said Sulu was on board because he had an "affection for Asians." To his credit, Rodenberry was trying to give his show an international look, but he was at best paternalistic in his views.

 

[Gary7]

By the mid Sixties, the antagonism toward Japan had died down. America had bases in Japan and servicemen were becoming enraptured with the culture and the people. My Dad served several tours of duty in Japan after the war and took the family with him on two of them. The Japanese were also a strong ally of ours in the Cold War.

Exactly. We had a growing trade relationship with Japan, and actually an imbalance in our favor (they bought more from us than we did from them). Funny how the tide changed in just 5 years after Star Trek ended.

However... believe it or not, there are still people who harbor ill will towards the Japanese, namely those who either experienced WWII first hand or had a close relative die in the Pacific battles. But thankfully they are an extreme minority.

 

[Doug Otte]

However... believe it or not, there are still people who harbor ill will towards the Japanese, namely those who either experienced WWII first hand or had a close relative die in the Pacific battles. But thankfully they are an extreme minority.

...and I know people, both Jews and Gentiles, who foreswear dealing with anything German. I don't think their relatives were victims, and of course present-day Germans are not the Nazis, but these people won't buy a Volkswagen, for example.

Doug

 

[Anji]

I think the reason there were no Jews on the Enterprise was the same reason there were no Christians, Pagans, Muslims, etc. on the ship. GR didn't want his show to be directly about religion or Christianity so, instead, he didn't have any crew members identify to a certain belief system.

Thanks for the enlightenment. I really didn't think of this. So everyone in Starfleet practiced the (pardon the pun) universal religion.

Yeah, pretty ridiculous, if you ask me. I think it was one of the weaknesses of GR's Utopian vision - by taking away the humans spirituality it often gave made them look almost smug and "holier than though." Granted, that was more of a problem in early TNG.

My interpretation is that there were no religions because mankind had grown out of needing a god or supreme being to look after it. At the point of TNG, people have learned to believe in EACH OTHER instead of a deity. (Something we all might want to try...)

Onto the Sulu Issue: it was only a big deal to actors of Asian descent. Up until TOS (with the exception of "The Green Hornet") Asians were always portrayed as bad guys on TV. Takei was one of the first Asian good guys, so for him it was a big deal. And Roddenberry felt he needed to represent every country in the world so he had to include folks of Asian/Oriental descent.

To us fans, it was no biggie.

 

[Maurice]

Weren't they in Chinatown?

It wasn't specifically said, IIRC, but it was presumably in a commercial area within walking distance of Golden Gate Park.

​

The scene was to be shot on the east side of Columbus Street, at the intersection of Columbus, Kearny and Pacific...basically the spot where they found the newspapers after "double dumb ass". You can see the distinctive Sentinel Building (now owned by Francis Ford Coppola) in the center background. Chinatown is on the other side of Columbus from this location. This is really across the street from it.

Most of the San Francisco stuff was shot at this intersection and a few blocks north in North Beach, the historically Italian neighborhood.

Mind you, it's walking distance from Golden Gate Park...if you're willing to walk 5 miles.

Map of walk from Golden gate Park to Double Dumb-Ass corner.

Oh, and here's a map of what I call the "Double Dumb-Ass Tour", which takes you to all the shooting locations in the city.
A. Corner where the crew starts across the street. Also where the "Exact change" scene occurs.
B. Double Dumb-Ass corner
C. Yellow pages ad
D. Nooclear Wessels
E. Too much LDS
F. I believe I was able to communicate our intentions

The bus scenes were shot driving on the Golden Gate Bridge. The helicopter was shot flying over the bay (going the wrong way, incidentally). All the "Golden Gate Park" stuff was shot in So Cal, as was the hospital.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

However... believe it or not, there are still people who harbor ill will towards the Japanese, namely those who either experienced WWII first hand or had a close relative die in the Pacific battles. But thankfully they are an extreme minority.

...and I know people, both Jews and Gentiles, who foreswear dealing with anything German. I don't think their relatives were victims, and of course present-day Germans are not the Nazis, but these people won't buy a Volkswagen, for example.

Doug

It's this which prompted me to ask the question, or something similar. Growing up in the seventies in the UK, there was a lingering antagonism to Nazi Germany that had bled over into public opinion of West Germany at the time. It wasn't outright hatred, but neither was it as diminished as the 'two world wars, and one world cup, doo-dah doo-dah' attitude that still pops up on football terraces during Internationals.

But the humour of the time, warmly expressed in shows like Dad's Army, Allo Allo and Fawlty "Don't Mention The War" Towers, could also be be a lot more cruder and xenophobic. And tabloid newspapers of the time could happily use the pejorative 'kraut' in headlines without censure. And this was up to 30 years after the war. It's only when political correctness and alternative comedy came on the scene that publicly expressed attitudes began to change.

 

[Doug Otte]

I think the reason there were no Jews on the Enterprise was the same reason there were no Christians, Pagans, Muslims, etc. on the ship. GR didn't want his show to be directly about religion or Christianity so, instead, he didn't have any crew members identify to a certain belief system.

Thanks for the enlightenment. I really didn't think of this. So everyone in Starfleet practiced the (pardon the pun) universal religion.

Yeah, pretty ridiculous, if you ask me. I think it was one of the weaknesses of GR's Utopian vision - by taking away the humans spirituality it often gave made them look almost smug and "holier than though." Granted, that was more of a problem in early TNG.

I forgot to comment on this yesterday. I don't remember anything in ST that implied that the crew were not religious; it's just that we never saw any reference either way. I don't see the "weakness" there; there wasn't generally much religious content in TV shows of that era, especially action shows. Also, perhaps it was felt that, while some technological advances could be assumed for the ST future, it would be foolish to try to project whether religion still existed, and in what form.

It was only in TNG that a few disparaging references were made to religion, most obviously in Who Watches the Watchers?

And, in DS9 we had a full-blown religious society upon which many of the episodes were based. Of course, Roddenberry had nothing to do w/ that series.

Doug