Is "Firefly" overated or underated?

[Captaindemotion]

There is no speculation needed as to the final portrayal of the Alliance: It is purely evil. Even its sincere proponents will be converted to the values of the Independents as embodied in the Big Damn Heroes. All schemes to improve humanity are vile impostures, and the diabolical effort to deny Nature/God will raise up demons in human form. It appears the Browncoats find these profound truths to be rich nourishment for the spirit.

This is totally wrong. Whedon has said in interviews that the Alliance isn't evil, it isn't Star Wars' empire. There are evil elements within it but he compared it to elements within the CIA or FBI who have been involved in dodgy activities. This doesn't, he reasons, make the whole USA an evil empire.

He has also said that Mal's views aren't his own and that if he met Mal, they probably wouldn't get on. Whedon is a moderate liberal, IIRC and he's compared Reynolds to an anti-government liberterian.

He has also been at pains to stress that while the Browncoats in FF were, like the confederacy, on the losing side of a civil war, they were not pro-slavery. The US civil war analogy is not an exact one.

 

[Deckerd]

I didn't get that the Alliance was evil, merely that it was too controlling.

 

[Lindley]

The whole Miranda thing was fairly black and white, but prior to the movie I didn't even get the "too controlling" thing; merely that it is too big to justly govern. The problem is that the decision-makers are too far away from the decisions they're making.

 

[DevilEyes]

All schemes to improve humanity are vile impostures, and the diabolical effort to deny Nature/God will raise up demons in human form. It appears the Browncoats find these profound truths to be rich nourishment for the spirit.

Uh, no. More like:

All schemes to improve humanity by conducting biological experiments on people, trying to completely control them and suppressing the truth are vile.

I sincerely hope that nobody here is denying those profound truths. But you never know.

 

[bigdaddy]

OVERRATED!!!!

But just by a little... not.

 

[Kegg]

I don't think the values of the characters are essentially the values of the show.

Firefly's values - such as they are - are essentially those of Malcolm Reynolds.

Sure, it's hypothetically possible that the series may have drifted from this in time, and I'm sure some diligent Browncoats can point to one or two scenes where Mal's values are seen as wrong (as opposed to him behaving in a way the series sees as wrong, not quite the same thing) - but in the episode "Serenity" and the film Serenity in particular, Mal serves as a kind of mouthpiece for What This Is All About. Be he the lone operator doing things his way in the pilot or the man who's standing up for human messiness and imperfection in the movie.

A good Lost Cause example of Malcolm Reynolds as a show mouthpeice would be "The Train Job", where he points out that his side lost the war because of lesser numbers - though not, the implication is clear, through inferior quality of fighting men.

On this point:

During the film, he changes as a character as he begins the film rejecting the notion that he needs to find belief.

The belief Malcolm embraces is a purely secular one, mind.

All schemes to improve humanity by conducting biological experiments on people, trying to completely control them and suppressing the truth are vile.

I sincerely hope that nobody here is denying those profound truths. But you never know.

We-ell...

I'd go to bat against the first of your truths. I don't think all schemes to improve humanity by conducting biological experiments are vile. Those experiments should, of course, be entered on consensually, and tested on animals first, but the idea that biotech can be beneficial to human lives is not something I reject as uniformly vile.

 

[FPAlpha]

I didn't get that the Alliance was evil, merely that it was too controlling.

That's what governments are for.. gettin' in a mans way

 

[Admiral2]

When someone says something like "cowboys in space speaking Chinese is idiotic," I think someone is short of imagination and can't accept something outside the purely conventional formula.

I was delighted at Whedon's attempt at something so far outside the ordinary, something so unusual.

Okay, so I hope you'll be enthusiastic about a new original fiction idea I'm working on. It's about Amish people in undersea habitats speaking Swahili. I'll post it soon. Hope you enjoy!

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ You, sir, are no Joss Whedon!

 

[Lonemagpie]

It's OK - it didn't actually last long enough to really give a rating, but it certainly deserved at least a full season, and probably a second, to see how it would go.

 

[Lindley]

When someone says something like "cowboys in space speaking Chinese is idiotic," I think someone is short of imagination and can't accept something outside the purely conventional formula.

I was delighted at Whedon's attempt at something so far outside the ordinary, something so unusual.

Okay, so I hope you'll be enthusiastic about a new original fiction idea I'm working on. It's about Amish people in undersea habitats speaking Swahili. I'll post it soon. Hope you enjoy!

Well, if you can justify it with a reasonable environment and set of circumstances leading to that situation, go for it.

 

[Sindatur]

When someone says something like "cowboys in space speaking Chinese is idiotic," I think someone is short of imagination and can't accept something outside the purely conventional formula.

I was delighted at Whedon's attempt at something so far outside the ordinary, something so unusual.

Okay, so I hope you'll be enthusiastic about a new original fiction idea I'm working on. It's about Amish people in undersea habitats speaking Swahili. I'll post it soon. Hope you enjoy!

This post seems to be implying the Chinese spoken in Firefly is completely random. China has a rather large economy, that's growing well, it's natural that economy could infuse Chinese into the common language in a spacefaring future.

 

[Kegg]

In fact, Mandarin is the most commonly spoken first language in the world.

This means that having people speak Mandarin in the future is probably one of the most plausible things Firefly did.

 

[Admiral2]

When someone says something like "cowboys in space speaking Chinese is idiotic," I think someone is short of imagination and can't accept something outside the purely conventional formula.

I was delighted at Whedon's attempt at something so far outside the ordinary, something so unusual.

Okay, so I hope you'll be enthusiastic about a new original fiction idea I'm working on. It's about Amish people in undersea habitats speaking Swahili. I'll post it soon. Hope you enjoy!

This post seems to be implying the Chinese spoken in Firefly is completely random. China has a rather large economy, that's growing well, it's natural that economy could infuse Chinese into the common language in a spacefaring future.

Yeah, that's Joss's rationalization now, but I'm pretty sure it was random when he came up with it, because just because the Chinese economy is vibrant and growing now doesn't mean it will be dominant enough in the future that the only languages spoken will be English and Chinese, and everybody is fluent in both. There's no guarantee the American economy will carry it that far into the future either. And the state of the economies of the two nations in the 21st century does nothing to explain why people living in space in the future are living like people in the 19th century on Earth!

It's just a culture (Cowboy), an environment (Space) and a language (Chinese) thrown together to be novel. There's nothing brilliant or hugely original about it. It's just how Joss Whedon works. ("Blonde walks into an alley followed by a vampire. She kicks the vampire's ass." "There's a vampire with a soul." Two series born from random crap.)

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Actually, he opted for Chinese because he reckoned that China would be the dominant economy and power in the future and thus that it would be the prevalent language. So you're wrong about the 'random' bit.

As for the 'doesn't mean everyone will be speaking Chinese and English in the future' bit, well, I'm pretty sure he wasn't trying to make predictions or a documentary.

There may be nothing original about his work but there certainly is plenty brilliant about it. That's why Buffy is light years ahead of Twilight and Angel is years ahead of Forever Knight.

 

[Sindatur]

Okay, so I hope you'll be enthusiastic about a new original fiction idea I'm working on. It's about Amish people in undersea habitats speaking Swahili. I'll post it soon. Hope you enjoy!

This post seems to be implying the Chinese spoken in Firefly is completely random. China has a rather large economy, that's growing well, it's natural that economy could infuse Chinese into the common language in a spacefaring future.

Yeah, that's Joss's rationalization now, but I'm pretty sure it was random when he came up with it, because just because the Chinese economy is vibrant and growing now doesn't mean it will be dominant enough in the future that the only languages spoken will be English and Chinese, and everybody is fluent in both. There's no guarantee the American economy will carry it that far into the future either. And the state of the economies of the two nations in the 21st century does nothing to explain why people living in space in the future are living like people in the 19th century on Earth!

It's just a culture (Cowboy), an environment (Space) and a language (Chinese) thrown together to be novel. There's nothing brilliant or hugely original about it. It's just how Joss Whedon works. ("Blonde walks into an alley followed by a vampire. She kicks the vampire's ass." "There's a vampire with a soul." Two series born from random crap.)

Oh, is that Whedon's explanation also? I'd never heard that, I just assumed, and it's not the first time I've seen Chinese used

 

[Lindley]

Yeah, that's Joss's rationalization now, but I'm pretty sure it was random when he came up with it, because just because the Chinese economy is vibrant and growing now doesn't mean it will be dominant enough in the future that the only languages spoken will be English and Chinese, and everybody is fluent in both. There's no guarantee the American economy will carry it that far into the future either.

Joss has said he envisioned America and China as being the two superpowers at the time of the Exodus. That's the justification.

Although, naming a planet Londinium does suggest the "western" elements may not be 100% American-centric....

And the state of the economies of the two nations in the 21st century does nothing to explain why people living in space in the future are living like people in the 19th century on Earth!

That one's easy. Technology requires infrastructure. To a certain extent colony worlds can be directly supplied by more established worlds, but as the frontier gets further out, this becomes less cost-effective and the colonies get less support. Without infrastructure, a horse is simply an easier vehicle to maintain than a hovercraft.

Some of the trappings may be poetic license but the basic concept is perfectly sound.

EDIT: In fact, Firefly isn't the only SF to address the concept. The 1632 book series postulates a 21st century town being transported wholesale into the hundred years' war. They have a power plant but not the ability to make spare parts. The solution? Begin transitioning to 19th-century technology which is easier to maintain, and still be 200 years ahead of the locals.

 

[David cgc]

Although, naming a planet Londinium does suggest the "western" elements may not be 100% American-centric....

Or maybe it just sounded better than "New Yorkia."

 

[DevilEyes]

It's just a culture (Cowboy), an environment (Space) and a language (Chinese) thrown together to be novel. There's nothing brilliant or hugely original about it. It's just how Joss Whedon works. ("Blonde walks into an alley followed by a vampire. She kicks the vampire's ass." "There's a vampire with a soul." Two series born from random crap.)

There is nothing "random" (or crappy) about the idea of reversing the stereotype of a female horror movie victim/damsel and making her a powerful slayer of monsters. It was very deliberate and very obviously and intentionally feminist.

What's even better, the first scene of Buffy, the TV show, subverts the stereotype in another way and shows someone who looks like a scared tiny blonde female horror movie victim - who turns out to actually be the monster (Darla dressed as a schoolgirl).

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Except that it didn't. So all we're left to analyze is what the show actually portrayed ... rather than the speculative "what the show might have portrayed." As it stands, the show most definitely embodies the anti-federalist, individualist values that were part of the Confederacy.

Again, I disagree. Yes, the heroes embody those values - or at the very least the two main heroes do (Zoe, Mal). Others are in the gray, having never fought the Alliance (Wash, Kaylee, Jayne), and others are Alliance citizens or vocally pro-Alliance (Book, River, Simon, Inara). So to say the show embodies the values of two of the main characters is patently unfair.

Hardly unfair. Zoe & Mal are the lens through which the series is shown. As main characters, their values are the values the series tacitly embraces (and, honestly, you can't say that Jayne, Book, River, Simon, Kaylee, Inara, represent pro-Alliance values). Far from being unfair, such analysis is patently reasonable. To dispute it is patently irrational.

the idea that nothing is black and white. The Alliance is not purely evil. The heroes aren't purely good. Yes, there are aspects of the Alliance that could be seen as evil (secret governments, assassins, experiments on citizens), but they are conducted by people who feel that at the end of the day they are working for the betterment of everybody.

Who said anything about "black & white"? Honestly, you're presenting a straw-man argument there. Just because the show embodies the anti-federalist, individualist values that were part of the Confederacy, doesn't mean that it explicitly portrays: Browncoats=only good; Alliance=only bad (or even Confederates=only good; Union=only bad). Fact is, though, the Browncoats portrayed in the series (Zoe & Mal) are our protagonists, while the Alliance represents (at least some of) the antagonists.

That's not an accident. And it's certainly isn't "unfair" to acknowledge that fact.

Further, it's not as if the life of "freedom" the main characters "enjoy" is consistently portrayed as being preferable to live on an Alliance world. We are often told the exact opposite! The Alliance worlds we see are clean, with high technology and happy citizens. Contrast that to the independent worlds we see, with dirt, disease, and dictators.

So even though the show didn't continue past a season, it was clear to me, and I'm guessing many others that the show wasn't pushing any one view of life or government as being preferable over another.

The show was, clearly, making an effort to get viewers to empathize with the worldview embodied by Mal & Zoe ("can't take the sky from me") as opposed to the Alliance. While Firefly was very good at portraying shades of grey, it's simply wrong to assert that it objectively and equally portrayed the values of the Browncoats and Alliance.