Was it wrong for Data to disable Lore?
- Thread starter Jayson
- Start date
But "reprogramming" isn't that what we do to people who are addicts? We find what led them down that path and help them reprogram. Yes they will always be addicts, but they will have the ability to live a normal life. Kids at risk, aren't they too reprogrammed to ignore the bad elements they encounter so they wont follow that path. And those that are incarcerated, they too can go to therapy and be reprogrammed to fit back into society. Not brainwashed, but, using therapy to help the person find their way again without manipulation.
How did you feel about Worf brainwashing his brother instead of letting him kill himself? Lesser of two evils? Couldn't that argument be used here?
Wasn't it the point, though, in the series to demonstrate how people in the "future" dealt with common problems in today's society? I feel this was too much of a "20th century" way of dealing with this problem. Yes, Lore was dangerous and psychopathic, but, over and over again in the series, it was repeatedly stressed that dealing with things like this had improved in the 300+ years that technically separate our present from the TNG time period. To me, this seemed too similar to the idea of life imprisonment or even the death penalty. I think the authors of this episode would have done better to think more about the environment this is set in and how dealing with Lore would fit into that environment.
Well, Kirk settled Khan who was certainly a greater baddie than Lore on a secluded planet to start a new life, that's no penalty at all. Maybe fell under the statute of limitations. Worf had the personality of his own brother erased for no crime, just for the survival of the body for a few more years. Lore's punishment by data is a bit harsh in a society which doesn't have a death penalty and vigilante justice if you think of him and data as sentient beings, and of us as just another kind of machines. Which I don't. They are not shaped by chance of genes like us, environment and experiences, right and wrong choices. They remain synthetic. Attributes like "Lore was a psychopath" are inappropriate.
"Vigilante justice"? As far as we can tell, Starfleet is the law.
Or at least the law enforcement, and indeed the only such force known to exist in the Federation. Data could quite plausibly perform an arrest, and Picard could quite plausibly have the powers of justice of peace (he marries people, after all!).
We don't know who writes the Federation law - a parliamentary system has never been mentioned, for example. But we know that if such law exists, it must deal with humans, Vulcans, Medusans and for all we know Bynars and holograms as well. In order to treat different people equally, the law probably has to dish out different punishments. A Vulcan would not be bothered by five years in jail as much as a human would - the same crime might have to carry a fourfold sentence length for a Vulcan, then. (Assuming that deprivation of freedom is still used as punishment, which doesn't appear to be the case at all.)
Disassembly for, oh, two or three centuries might well be the proper punishment for an android for a crime that earns a human two months of therapy.
Timo Saloniemi
Or at least the law enforcement, and indeed the only such force known to exist in the Federation. Data could quite plausibly perform an arrest, and Picard could quite plausibly have the powers of justice of peace (he marries people, after all!).
We don't know who writes the Federation law - a parliamentary system has never been mentioned, for example. But we know that if such law exists, it must deal with humans, Vulcans, Medusans and for all we know Bynars and holograms as well. In order to treat different people equally, the law probably has to dish out different punishments. A Vulcan would not be bothered by five years in jail as much as a human would - the same crime might have to carry a fourfold sentence length for a Vulcan, then. (Assuming that deprivation of freedom is still used as punishment, which doesn't appear to be the case at all.)
Disassembly for, oh, two or three centuries might well be the proper punishment for an android for a crime that earns a human two months of therapy.
Timo Saloniemi
This is akin to me likening the murder of my son to "putting him back the way found him"
This is akin to me likening the murder of my son to "putting him back the way found him"
Well there is that old parental threat....'I brought you into this world, I can sure as hell take you back out...and replace you if need be.'
I thought what Worf did to Kurn was disgusting, and what's worse they never had him reflect on it after he restored their House and their family was stronger than ever.
Kirk and Khan, well leaving him on Ceti Alpha really backfired on Kirk so killing him then and there would've been preferable.
Huh. I thought Ceti Alpha V turning into a barren hellhole after Ceti Alpha VI exploded was an unexpected development nobody could've foreseen. I find it hard to blame Kirk for that, though I can understand why Khan would.
This is akin to me likening the murder of my son to "putting him back the way found him"
Maybe. If your son had repeatedly tried to kill large groups of people. And after you dismembered him he could easily be reassembled when a better option presented itself. It would be quite a trick...
Umm, what?
Kirk specifically promised not to bother Khan again! That was the whole point - sweeping the problem under the rug and keeping it there forever, not bringing it back out every few years.
All the talk about it perhaps being interesting to revisit the planet in a few years was idle speculation, something that the heroes knew would never actually happen. Khan was abandoned because Kirk rather idolized him and didn't want to see him dead, but OTOH never wanted to see him again. Khan probably shared the latter sentiment even though not the former.
Timo Saloniemi
But wouldn't he have to report the whole thing to Starfleet? You'd think McGivers' being left there would've warranted that. You'd think her family would've requested some checking up!
And why would Kirk admire Khan in the first place? He was a tyrant who tried to kill him!
And why would Kirk admire Khan in the first place? He was a tyrant who tried to kill him!
It all comes down to the lack of genocide or even the other usual crimes associated with a dictatorship under Khan's regime. That's what they admired about him, despite his tyrannical nature he was against things such as murder or corruption and tried to "offer the world order".
You could argue that Data and Lore were both representatives of their particular species and all Data did was carry out the "justice" that his "species" does in this type of situation. Something Starfleet would likely stay out of as part of a "non-interference" policy.
Data didn't deactivate Lore out of vigilante justice or even as a Starfleet officer, he did it as another android in his particular "species" of android, of which Lore is a member.
What Data did is not too different than when Worf killed Duras for the murder of K'Ehleyr. He did it in accordance with Klingon law and tradition, on Duras' murder the Klingons considered the matter closed and carried out "legally." Sure, Worf got a bit of a dressing down by Picard but otherwise suffered no negative effects (other than I think a note in his record or something.)
What Data isn't too drastically different and is helped by the extreme circumstances, the genocidal tendencies of Lore at the time. Data acted with in the "traditions" of his own personal culture and he also disabled a genocidal madman.
I'd say galactic society and civilization wins.
Data didn't deactivate Lore out of vigilante justice or even as a Starfleet officer, he did it as another android in his particular "species" of android, of which Lore is a member.
What Data did is not too different than when Worf killed Duras for the murder of K'Ehleyr. He did it in accordance with Klingon law and tradition, on Duras' murder the Klingons considered the matter closed and carried out "legally." Sure, Worf got a bit of a dressing down by Picard but otherwise suffered no negative effects (other than I think a note in his record or something.)
What Data isn't too drastically different and is helped by the extreme circumstances, the genocidal tendencies of Lore at the time. Data acted with in the "traditions" of his own personal culture and he also disabled a genocidal madman.
I'd say galactic society and civilization wins.
Data's culture would be part of the UFP, though, while Worf "represented" a foreign ally. With allies, most you can usually do is appease. With members, you would do well to set an example. Data, as a species of one, wouldn't be in a position to oppose much if Starfleet (say, prompted by Picard, and proceeding via whatever legislative mechanisms there exist in the UFP) decided to write a law making dismantling of a fellow android punishable by dismantling.
Kirk lost plenty of personnel, and apparently had the power to define how they had been lost - Decker and Ilia went "missing", for example. Something equally vague could have been entered in the records about McGivers, and Kirk would have felt confident he was doing her parents a favor, hiding rather than exposing her traitorous conduct.
The whole point about marooning appeared to be that Khan had to be hidden from the authorities. Kirk could have dropped him off at a starbase easily enough, after all (unless he feared further traitors in his own crew and couldn't risk another escape attempt - but that's a bit unlikely, considering how the original security measurements had been lax on purpose, giving Kirk's idol the benefit of doubt).
That Kirk hid Khan from Starfleet does not appear to be in doubt, not even when Khan in his usual style of unashamed vanity expresses mild surprise at Chekov not having spread rumors about him.
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk lost plenty of personnel, and apparently had the power to define how they had been lost - Decker and Ilia went "missing", for example. Something equally vague could have been entered in the records about McGivers, and Kirk would have felt confident he was doing her parents a favor, hiding rather than exposing her traitorous conduct.
The whole point about marooning appeared to be that Khan had to be hidden from the authorities. Kirk could have dropped him off at a starbase easily enough, after all (unless he feared further traitors in his own crew and couldn't risk another escape attempt - but that's a bit unlikely, considering how the original security measurements had been lax on purpose, giving Kirk's idol the benefit of doubt).
That Kirk hid Khan from Starfleet does not appear to be in doubt, not even when Khan in his usual style of unashamed vanity expresses mild surprise at Chekov not having spread rumors about him.
Timo Saloniemi
But even in the real world, we don't always remove threats. Violent criminals aren't always executed, and this often depends on the legal tradition and the legal punishments of a given jurisdiction. Lore as an android had every right that Data himself fought for, so to terminate him as he did made no sense. Besides, the Federation doesn't execute criminals. Janeway didn't want to execute Suter. I doubt the Federation executed Kivas Fajo after he kidnapped Data and killed his assistant either.
There's a bit of a difference between a career criminal who happened to kill one person and a man who was trying to commit genocide.
You could also argue that an officer is required to take whatever means are necessary to stop someone from carrying out their crimes. What was that episode where there was a young woman whom Riker was smitten with who was "programed" by a race of people to kill the leader of a rival planet of off-shoots? Riker beams down, tells her to stop, she doesn't, he shoots at her with a stun-setting and she doesn't stop. He then precedes to kill her with a vaporize setting. He did what he had to do to prevent a serious crime from being committed and suffered no repercussions.
Data did the same here and in Lore's case -being an android- there's only one way to stop him and assuredly be able to take him into custody and that's to deactivate him. Lore was dangerous, hell in a previous encounter Picard and company where happy with just beaming him out into space and to allow simply whatever to happen to happen.
It seems that serious, hard-core, criminals with the desire to commit mass destruction/death aren't given much in the way of rights and due process. Remember we're also talking about a Federation that has the death penalty for simply visiting one particular planet.
You could also argue that an officer is required to take whatever means are necessary to stop someone from carrying out their crimes. What was that episode where there was a young woman whom Riker was smitten with who was "programed" by a race of people to kill the leader of a rival planet of off-shoots? Riker beams down, tells her to stop, she doesn't, he shoots at her with a stun-setting and she doesn't stop. He then precedes to kill her with a vaporize setting. He did what he had to do to prevent a serious crime from being committed and suffered no repercussions.
Data did the same here and in Lore's case -being an android- there's only one way to stop him and assuredly be able to take him into custody and that's to deactivate him. Lore was dangerous, hell in a previous encounter Picard and company where happy with just beaming him out into space and to allow simply whatever to happen to happen.
It seems that serious, hard-core, criminals with the desire to commit mass destruction/death aren't given much in the way of rights and due process. Remember we're also talking about a Federation that has the death penalty for simply visiting one particular planet.
