Too Serious?: Sexual Assault in RotJ

[Myasishchev]

TL;DR version: thinking Slave Leia is sexy is fucked up. Or, if you're functionally literate, a more nuanced version below.

Something that's come to strike me as incredibly weird over the past couple of years is how the scenes of sexual slavery and abuse in Return of the Jedi were--as far as I know--not at the time, and rarely since, viewed as any sort of serious matter.

Thing is, the content of the scene is very serious, and despite some arguably fan servicey stuff, is in fact a matter of life or death. Lucas included the scene of the Twi'lek dancer to highlight this and to contrast it with Leia's successful physical struggle against Jabba. (It's like poetry; it rhymes.)

Granted from a distance of not having seen the movie for years the event is treated reasonably respectfully in the film considering the totality of the circumstances, if with no attempt at psychological realism (which is par for the course with Star Wars, e.g. Luke processing his grief for the people he considered his parents inside the space of a ten second shot and never mentioning them again).

Firstly, I don't see any point in discussing whether or not it was sexual violence. If I kidnapped someone, stripped them, forced them to wear gear of my choosing, chained them to my neck, and displayed her to my gangster buddies, I don't suppose I'd manage to get away from being classed as a sex offender just because I didn't actually force sex on her. (Although sexual battery of some kind is actually heavily implied iirc.)

It's definitely sexual violence. That's inarguable.

Secondly, consistently with the above, I'm not bashing RotJ. Unlike a lot of sexual assault in entertainment, it is not used to motivate other characters or otherwise serve as a plot device. It could actually be removed and leave the character intact. It's treated with facility, basically as a creepy adventure Leia's having, but at least it's Leia's own creepy adventure. So, sensitive it is not, but respectful, maybe. At least sort of. Okay, maybe I am bashing on RotJ. But let's pretend I'm not.

No, what bothers me is the idea that one can take an unambiguous sexual assault and turn that into fetish fuel. People fantasized about "Slave Leia"; and to an extent still do. The name itself should advise some moral caution already, shouldn't it? But it's a memetic beast--I don't remember many other jokes about rape on Friends, but Slave Leia was fair game. Ross Gellar: unpotentiated sexual predator? I think it checks out.

Adding to the strangeness is women who accept this fetishized, quasi-sanitized sexual assault and see no problems with it, cosplaying as not Leia, but Slave Leia. Now, to be perfectly clear for the slow, it's not the skin. You wanna dress up as Power Girl? Be my guest, although if you've truly got the figure for it, my condolences to your back.

But I mean, is there an analogue of Slave Leia anywhere? Do women cosplay as Sue Dibny and get a male pal to don the black-and-white of Arthur Light? How about Clarice Starling with Multiple Miggs' pina colada mix in her eye? Do women dress up as Alex from Irreversible, complete with bashed in nose and blood running down their legs?

Monica Belluci is hot, guys, so why not? Sexual assault is sexy. Return of the Jedi proves it.

Now I'm sure I'm not the first person to note this. I could probably have googled some shit and obviated this tl;dr screed by using someone else's thoughts. But I wanted to use my own thoughts, and to find out what you think, and why.

 

[JarodRussell]

Dude, it's the bikini, not the context.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

TL;DR version: No, what bothers me is the idea that one can take an unambiguous sexual assault and turn that into fetish fuel. People fantasized about "Slave Leia"; and to an extent still do.

People have twisted fantasies. I can't put it any more clearly than that. Some people are turned on by things you would find messed up, but that is their right in a free society. Some guys are just as turned on at the thought of being enslaved, as are some women.

Since nobody was actually enslaved in RoTJ other than a fictional character, I'd chalk this up to harmless fun.

It would be a completely different matter if people were drooling over actual video of sexual slavery.

 

[Myasishchev]

TL;DR version: No, what bothers me is the idea that one can take an unambiguous sexual assault and turn that into fetish fuel. People fantasized about "Slave Leia"; and to an extent still do.

People have twisted fantasies. I can't put it any more clearly than that. Some people are turned on by things you would find messed up, but that is their right in a free society. Some guys are just as turned on at the thought of being enslaved, as are some women.

Since nobody was actually enslaved in RoTJ other than a fictional character, I'd chalk this up to harmless fun.

It would be a completely different matter if people were drooling over actual video of sexual slavery.

Well, that would be fair and a reasonably harmless explanation.

Sure, BDSM can be kinda fun, and there are people tons more into than me. At the same time, it strikes me as fun because it's a game. "It's not real" is a lot easier to process in a scene, or porno, designed for the purpose of fulfilling some fantasy or establishing temporary roles, than a fiction where it "actually happens" in-universe and the character has existed prior to the event and exists thereafter with the memory thereof.

Like, if you're in a scene, it's make-believe for you, but for a fictional rape victim it's real for them? Does that make sense? But I guess others may see it differently, i.e., "it's all made-up."

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Sure, BDSM can be kinda fun, and there are people tons more into than me. At the same time, it strikes me as fun because it's a game. "It's not real" is a lot easier to process in a scene, or porno, designed for the purpose of fulfilling some fantasy or establishing temporary roles, than a fiction where it "actually happens" in-universe and the character has existed prior to the event and exists thereafter with the memory thereof.

When I see most people commenting on the scene it is because of Leia's costume, not her temporary, and if you recall fully willing and planned slavery.

It would be like if Han were frozen in carbonite with nothing on but a speedo and women gushed over the image.

 

[Gaith]

Like, if you're in a scene, it's make-believe for you, but for a fictional rape victim it's real for them? Does that make sense? But I guess others may see it differently, i.e., "it's all made-up."

But that's just it - I don't think many guys watch that scene or think of the bikini and say, "boy, I'd like to actually be Jabba, and terrorize someone." I think nearly everyone thinks of the bikini and go "boy, CF looked great in that outfit; I'd really like a gal who looked that good to wear an approximation of that bikini and consensually and enthusiastically let me give her a few light spankings on the bottom before we move on to straight-up shagging."

Either way, however, when performed respectfully, safely and with affection, there's nothing wrong with a little sexual assault play-acting. Nothing whatsoever.

 

[EnsignRicky]

I don't think it was her predicament that attracted people as much as the fact that she looked freakin' hot.

If your looking for an even remotely legitimate arguement in the same vein what about Shmi Skywalker? I seriously doubt the Sandpeople snatched her up and kept her tied bruised and beaten in a tent for her mushroom picking skills.

Just go easy on the Han in Carbonite crowd, they can get pretty defensive.

 

[TremblingBluStar]

Just go easy on the Han in Carbonite crowd, they can get pretty defensive.

Yeah, but he looked pretty damn hot in that carbonite!

 

[Myasishchev]

When I see most people commenting on the scene it is because of Leia's costume, not her temporary, and if you recall fully willing and planned slavery.

It would be like if Han were frozen in carbonite with nothing on but a speedo and women gushed over the image.

I'd find that pretty off too.

I don't recall that being fully planned, tho. My interpretation was that Plan A was to infiltrate as Boushh, presumably with Lando's help, collect Han, and GTFO. Plan A didn't go well, to the extent that Jabba was never fooled in the first place, so they had to go with Plan B (Luke saves everybody with superpowers).

I mean, if Plan B was Plan A, why was Plan A even attempted? All it did was deliver Chewie and Leia into Jabba's hands. Granted, Plan B was to deliver Luke into Jabba's hands although by all appearances he could've straight up murdered Jabba on his throne any time he chose, and only didn't because of the hostages Plan A had provided Jabba.

Am I misremembering?

P.S.: whatever happened to that thermal detonator? It seemed to work the first time. I mean, hell, it's never acknowledged whether that was a bluff or not, you know? I certainly wasn't sure it wasn't.
P.P.S: great, now the thread's about me nerdpicking Jedi.

Either way, however, when performed respectfully, safely and with affection, there's nothing wrong with a little sexual assault play-acting. Nothing whatsoever.

So what you're saying is that movies are ruining our imaginations.

 

[EnsignRicky]

Just go easy on the Han in Carbonite crowd, they can get pretty defensive.

Yeah, but he looked pretty damn hot in that carbonite!

Only now you have me wishing for a Speedo.

 

[Trekker4747]

It's more about the sexy bikini that the "slave" part and even in the humans-only context the "slave" part has some kink to it if both parties are willing participants doing some role-playing.

There's little evidence that there was anything sexual going on between Jabba and his female slaves. Jabba being a slug-like creature and his "slaves" often being humanoids any such sexual contact is likely impossible. From Jabba's POV all he had was a fun, good-looking, pet to do what he desires.

To him Leia was nothing more than a good-looking mammal at his side, she was his "purse dog." On occasion he liked to make his purse dogs do stupid tricks in order to be rewarded with something nice or slightly better treatment, perhaps.

Evryone, of both genders, likely has fantasies of making an attracive member of their prefered sex playing to their whims but the line is crossed when fantasies and co-operative role-playing becomes a forced upon action.

If I kidnap a young woman and make her do my bidding while scantly dressed, yes, I am a comitting a crime. But there's nothing wrong with playing out my fantasies with a willing partner. Those girls at cons wearing the "Slave Leia" dresses know what they are doing and that they're going to be looked at and admired for what they have, or criticized for what they don't have. (And vice versa.)

Now, I think some fans can go a little nuts by drooling over these girls and wanting their pictures taken with them or following them with a camera (when the girl is not part of any promotional campaign where pictures are part of the deal), but to be admired? They kind of ask for that when they wore a bikini to a public convention.

Some read too much into the "Slave" part of "Slave Leia" without realizing that the "Slave" part is only there not because of what they want Leia to be, or be for them, but because of what she was in that scene and to separate her from the Leia with the cinnabun hairdo, the speeder-bike outfit, or whatever else.

It's a fantasy, it's fun. The Leia in the Gold Bikini like isn't about the slave part, or ignorning the horrors that come with being a slave (even as a "pet" and not a sexual servant), it's about the pretty scantly-dressed woman.

 

[Gaith]

Monica Belluci is hot, guys, so why not? Sexual assault is sexy.

Many people associate Slave Leia with early sexual thoughts. For obvious and good reasons, I sincerely doubt many young adolescent boys watch Irreversible, much less get turned on by it.

Myself, I watched RotJ long before adolescence, and the bikini never make much of an impression on me. This, however...

​

Yow.

 

[Myasishchev]

I don't think it was her predicament that attracted people as much as the fact that she looked freakin' hot.

That's actually my point. How do you separate that from its context? Could you do it with another movie?

And, more generally, is a rape scene appropriate to be seen as the sexual awakening for a generation of young dorks?

If your looking for an even remotely legitimate arguement in the same vein what about Shmi Skywalker? I seriously doubt the Sandpeople snatched her up and kept her tied bruised and beaten in a tent for her mushroom picking skills.

Yeah, but nobody fetishizes Shmi Skywalker.

Nobody really fetishizes Padme*, either, although there's a heavy (probably unintentional) subtext there, involving a Jedi mind trick of terrifyingly broad scope. I always thought that if that had been brought a little more to the fore, it could've been a really interesting concept to explore--basically negligent rape by mind control--but it would've probably made the PT some of the darkest SF films ever made and God knows Lucas of the 21st century was in no position to do approach that with anything like tact anyway.

ETA: I guess I've gotta take that back.

But if one were to fetishize Padme, it'd have to be those neat dresses.

I sincerely doubt many young adolescent boys watch Irreversible, much less get turned on by it.

They ought. It's an instructive film about a lot of things, not the least being how warped a story becomes when it uses rape as a plot device to drive the male characters' actions. It's meta. Well, either that, or it's a warped story that uses rape as a plot device to drive the male characters' actions. Hard to say.

 

[Thestral]

Nobody really fetishizes Padme*, either, although there's a heavy (probably unintentional) subtext there, involving a Jedi mind trick of terrifyingly broad scope. I always thought that if that had been brought a little more to the fore, it could've been a really interesting concept to explore--basically negligent rape by mind control--but it would've probably made the PT some of the darkest SF films ever made and God knows Lucas of the 21st century was in no position to do approach that with anything like tact anyway.

That's become my take on how the Anakin/Padme "relationship" happened, tbh, because the subtext is so heavy, if unintentional. Twisted? Fuck yes.

But if one were to fetishize Padme, it'd have to be those neat dresses.

No, I'm with Gaith here. That white outfit was fantastic.

 

[Myasishchev]

That's become my take on how the Anakin/Padme "relationship" happened, tbh, because the subtext is so heavy, if unintentional. Twisted? Fuck yes.

Thing is, the movie makes a lot more sense (and becomes less terrible, too) if you approach it that way. "Sand sand sand sand love love love love" is terrible dialogue, but what if it ain't dialogue? As white noise designed to hypnotize a target, it could be chillingly effective.

Then they frolick in a field and the effect is somewhat ruined.

But that scene where he's like "I KILLED THEM ALL" and Padme slides right on by it like killing women and children is roughly on the same scale of "anger" as punching a wall, only makes sense as a conversation between two humans if one of them is under some kind of mind control.

No, I'm with Gaith here. That white outfit was fantastic.

You spit on top-notch costume design. You spit on it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Monica Belluci is hot, guys, so why not? Sexual assault is sexy.

Many people associate Slave Leia with early sexual thoughts. For obvious and good reasons, I sincerely doubt many young adolescent boys watch Irreversible, much less get turned on by it.

Myself, I watched RotJ long before adolescence, and the bikini never make much of an impression on me. This, however...

​

Yow.

they used a still from a point in the movie near that to sell sliced cheese in the super market, and after seeing the movie I realised that half her back was missing from a baby rancor attack.

Are people turned on by women with huge gashes?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

TL;DR version: thinking Slave Leia is sexy is fucked up. Or, if you're functionally literate, a more nuanced version below.

Something that's come to strike me as incredibly weird over the past couple of years is how the scenes of sexual slavery and abuse in Return of the Jedi were--as far as I know--not at the time, and rarely since, viewed as any sort of serious matter.

Thing is, the content of the scene is very serious, and despite some arguably fan servicey stuff, is in fact a matter of life or death. Lucas included the scene of the Twi'lek dancer to highlight this and to contrast it with Leia's successful physical struggle against Jabba. (It's like poetry; it rhymes.)

Granted from a distance of not having seen the movie for years the event is treated reasonably respectfully in the film considering the totality of the circumstances, if with no attempt at psychological realism (which is par for the course with Star Wars, e.g. Luke processing his grief for the people he considered his parents inside the space of a ten second shot and never mentioning them again).

Firstly, I don't see any point in discussing whether or not it was sexual violence. If I kidnapped someone, stripped them, forced them to wear gear of my choosing, chained them to my neck, and displayed her to my gangster buddies, I don't suppose I'd manage to get away from being classed as a sex offender just because I didn't actually force sex on her. (Although sexual battery of some kind is actually heavily implied iirc.)

It's definitely sexual violence. That's inarguable.

Secondly, consistently with the above, I'm not bashing RotJ. Unlike a lot of sexual assault in entertainment, it is not used to motivate other characters or otherwise serve as a plot device. It could actually be removed and leave the character intact. It's treated with facility, basically as a creepy adventure Leia's having, but at least it's Leia's own creepy adventure. So, sensitive it is not, but respectful, maybe. At least sort of. Okay, maybe I am bashing on RotJ. But let's pretend I'm not.

No, what bothers me is the idea that one can take an unambiguous sexual assault and turn that into fetish fuel. People fantasized about "Slave Leia"; and to an extent still do. The name itself should advise some moral caution already, shouldn't it? But it's a memetic beast--I don't remember many other jokes about rape on Friends, but Slave Leia was fair game. Ross Gellar: unpotentiated sexual predator? I think it checks out.

Adding to the strangeness is women who accept this fetishized, quasi-sanitized sexual assault and see no problems with it, cosplaying as not Leia, but Slave Leia. Now, to be perfectly clear for the slow, it's not the skin. You wanna dress up as Power Girl? Be my guest, although if you've truly got the figure for it, my condolences to your back.

But I mean, is there an analogue of Slave Leia anywhere? Do women cosplay as Sue Dibny and get a male pal to don the black-and-white of Arthur Light? How about Clarice Starling with Multiple Miggs' pina colada mix in her eye? Do women dress up as Alex from Irreversible, complete with bashed in nose and blood running down their legs?

Monica Belluci is hot, guys, so why not? Sexual assault is sexy. Return of the Jedi proves it.

Now I'm sure I'm not the first person to note this. I could probably have googled some shit and obviated this tl;dr screed by using someone else's thoughts. But I wanted to use my own thoughts, and to find out what you think, and why.

I don't know how fucked up it is - plenty, I guess - but the "slave girl" or "harem girl" fetish or fantasy is so common in pop culture that a lot of people are certainly desensitized to it. Google "harem girl" and "halloween costume."

You know, you got the same shit going on with Star Trek and "Orion women."

I think it's nice that Leia expressed her opinion of Jabba's treatment by throttling him to death with a length of chain and her bare hands when the opportunity came. That did not appear to be done with detachment.

 

[Gaith]

No, I'm with Gaith here. That white outfit was fantastic.

You spit on top-notch costume design. You spit on it.

Dude, we're not saying the other outfits were bad. Not at all. But the white outfit is the most athletic one, and the one in which she's most active, if you take my meaning, so...

Besides, I've said in the TPM thread a while back that if a hypothetical fiance of mine wanted to wear the rainbow pastel dress to our own darn wedding, I wouldn't really be able to object.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm not so sure it was a sex thing.

Lois on family Guy Return of the Jedi specifically looked into the camera and said "I have not been raped."

There was a story in Tales of the Bounty Hunters were Jabba gives slavegirl Leia for the night to Bobba Fett to have his way with. "His Way" turned out to be sitting on the other side of the room reading a book, because he didn't think rape was cool, no matter the peer pressure involved calling him a softcock big girls blouse.

I think the vet loooking after the rancor, told Jabba that it was surring form a little malnutritiono and what it really needed witha little "gold" in it's diet to combat the rancor-anemia putting it under the weather, which is why Jabba was wrapping up his pets medicine in it's food.

 

[sidious618]

I've thought about how fucked up it is, too. As a kid I didn't really think about it other than "Leia is in trouble" which is why I found it hot but the scene is disturbing. I can still find her attractive, though, while understanding she's in a bad state.