Just finished Destiny. Some Spoilers

[Idran]

This all ties back to the weird conception people have that emotions and rationality are at odds, and can't work in concert. It's entirely possible to take into account your emotional state when acting rationally, or to include rationality in your thought processes when you act emotionally. The two aren't in opposition to one another at all, let alone mutually exclusive.

The whole left-brain/right-brain nonsense probably doesn't help with that misconception either, honestly.

 

[JRoss]

^Sounds right to me. The Caeliar believe in keeping to themselves and not getting involved with other people's problems. They didn't get rid of the Borg to help the Federation; they rescued the Borg from their own dysfunction because the Borg were, in a sense, fallen Caeliar and needed to be healed. What they did was to help their own kind, as they saw it.

On page 409 the Caeliar undertake their new mission to find and protect weaker species. I really have to call some foul on not getting some sort of "reparations" from the Caeliar for what the Borg did.

 

[Mr Silver]

Well I guess the Caeliar could have offered them some resources necessary to rebuild. But I'm against the idea of them sharing advanced technology. It would be comparable to the Ferengi buying warp drive.

If they gave the Federation "Transwarp Drive" (if we understand that as being the infinite velocity version), it would be several hundred (or thousand) years too early. I tend to disregard "Threshold" from continunity, but even then if we assume that the Caeliar had access to transwarp that didn't cause those effects, it would be irresponsible for them to give it to a culture, thousands of years behind them.

I'd rather the Caeliar just buggered off! Whilst I initially found them boring, a re-read helped me appreciate the characterisation of the species and the finer points of their culture. Whilst I was still frustrated by their inexhaustable logic for keeping people captive, I appreciated some of the reasons why. Since the Caeliar are pacifist, should they come under attack from a hostile force (perhaps one that was impervious to their abilities) it would mean destruction of their civilisation and the loss of advanced technology that could be used to destroy several others.

 

[Sci]

Well I guess the Caeliar could have offered them some resources necessary to rebuild. But I'm against the idea of them sharing advanced technology. It would be comparable to the Ferengi buying warp drive.

If they gave the Federation "Transwarp Drive" (if we understand that as being the infinite velocity version), it would be several hundred (or thousand) years too early.

"Too early?" Technological development doesn't happen on a schedule.

I tend to disregard "Threshold" from continunity, but even then if we assume that the Caeliar had access to transwarp that didn't cause those effects, it would be irresponsible for them to give it to a culture, thousands of years behind them.

Why? The Caeliar already proved themselves to be much less socially mature than the Federation, what with their extreme xenophobic streak, tendency towards stagnation, difficulty adapting to dissent, and authoritarian tendencies towards other cultures.

Technology is not a sign of social maturity.

 

[JRoss]

Totally agree, person above me. Honestly, I find the "don't share with less-developed cultures thing weak."

We have folks today who seek to isolate Amazon tribes that have never seen outsiders before from the outside world.

I'm not saying that people with higher technology are better or that their way of life should be adopted by everyone, but by all means if someone has knowledge that can help, such as medicine, then they ought to offer their help respectfully, not try to keep a little museum exhibit going on.

 

[Mr Silver]

"Too early?" Technological development doesn't happen on a schedule.

No, but the Federation couldn't handle that level of technology. It's already been established in Star Trek that cultures are usually left in the dark by other cultures until they develop warp drive. Giving the Federation access to technology that would allow them to teleport between galaxies would be irresponsible, it would be like Superman giving Earth access to advanced Kryptonian technology and letting them do what they want with it.

Why? The Caeliar already proved themselves to be much less socially mature than the Federation, what with their extreme xenophobic streak, tendency towards stagnation, difficulty adapting to dissent, and authoritarian tendencies towards other cultures.

Technology is not a sign of social maturity.

What has social maturity got to do with it? The Caeliar don't interfere with other civilisations unless they are discovered. In which case they do the whole "guests with restrictions" thing or displace them to another location. The Caeliar's attitude to less technologically advanced cultures is very mature. Sure, they were responsible in some manner for the creation of the Borg, but they didn't know this until the Federation explained it to them. This suggests that they have a disinterest in the various civilisations around them and act as the Federation would with species that aren't warp capable.

 

[JRoss]

Straight up, if you are aware of a grievous problem and have the means to help another in immediate need, you are obligated to do so.

 

[Mr Silver]

Straight up, if you are aware of a grievous problem and have the means to help another in immediate need, you are obligated to do so.

Morally, yes. But we've seen numerous examples in Trek where this just hasn't happened. Take Worf in "The Enemy" for example. He had the means to save the Romulan officer's life, but was not obligated to do so. Therefore Worf refused and the officer died. What about the Romulans refusing to get involved in the Dominion War? They constantly refused, despite having the means to make up numbers and give the rest of the quadrant a better chance. They didn't get involved until something was seen to have affected them directly (although as we know, it was a long con).

 

[Christopher]

No, but the Federation couldn't handle that level of technology. It's already been established in Star Trek that cultures are usually left in the dark by other cultures until they develop warp drive. Giving the Federation access to technology that would allow them to teleport between galaxies would be irresponsible, it would be like Superman giving Earth access to advanced Kryptonian technology and letting them do what they want with it.

That's not really a valid argument, that societies need to reach a certain level before they can "handle" new knowledge. History is full of examples of isolated civilizations getting hold of technology far more advanced than their own and quickly adapting to it. Medieval Europe was a primitive backwater until it gained Asian and Mideastern technologies like the printing press, the compass, the lateen sail, the stirrup, and the like, and far from being destroyed by those sudden advances, Europe embraced them and adapted to them extremely well (perhaps too well, as far as the rest of the world was concerned, because they kinda ended up conquering most of it). And there are a lot of places in the world today where the older generation lived like people thousands of years ago but the current generation has cell phones and laptops. And that hasn't destroyed those societies. On the contrary, many long-isolated communities in places like India are benefitting immensely from satellite dishes and cell phones that connect them to the world, from the opportunity to get real educations for their children, from improved medicine and hygiene, etc.

What people misunderstand about the Prime Directive -- what the writers of TNG in particular misunderstood -- is that it's not about protecting "primitive" cultures from their own weakness or inadequacy. It's about protecting them from the Federation's weaknesses. It's about recognizing that "we" (i.e. the Federation) are fallible and capable of getting too arrogant or making bad choices based on lack of information, so we shouldn't think we have the right to impose our ideas and values on other cultures. That doesn't mean those cultures are somehow too infantile to handle new knowledge. That's condescending rubbish. It means that the Federation recognizes that if it has significantly more power than another culture, then that creates a risk of abusing that power and thinking we have the right to tell another culture what to do when in fact they're entirely capable of making their own decisions. So interpreting the Prime Directive as being about the other culture's inadequacy or immaturity is getting it completely backward. It's actually about trusting the other culture's ability to take care of itself and recognizing the Federation's capacity for error. Unfortunately, judging from TNG, the 24th-century Federation itself has forgotten this.

 

[Mr Silver]

I see your point. I guess I just don't think that the Federation could handle such technology, potentially hundreds of years before they would naturally develop it themselves. As time goes on, attitudes change. What about the reaction of those around the Federation? When an enemy gets a hold of advanced technology that gives them a tactical advantage, how would they feel about it?

The Tholians for example, refused to assist the Federation during the Borg crisis. From the conclusion of the crisis, should the Federation have been given advanced technology it could prompt a war. The Tholians might fear for their civilisation and take it upon themselves to declare war on the Federation and take the technology for themselves. That last thing the Caeliar would want is to start a war over something they've given to one culture as a good will gesture.

In "Greater Than The Sum", you characterised the Federation as panicking about the Borg gaining Quantum Slipstream technology and thus gaining a tactical advantage. Therefore the Federation went out of their way to stop them by sending the Enterprise to fight the Einstein. Perhaps the Tholians would see the Federation gaining such a technology that offers a tactical advantage in the same respect as the Federation saw the Borg gaining Quantum Slipstream. Sure, the Tholians could attempt to put a stop to it happening, but once the Federation gained the technology it could start a war and I argue that the Caeliar would go out of their way to avoid these types of possibilities.

 

[Christopher]

I see your point. I guess I just don't think that the Federation could handle such technology, potentially hundreds of years before they would naturally develop it themselves.

That attitude makes no sense. As someone said above, there is no set timetable for technological advance. It goes in fits and starts, a sort of punctuated equilibrium. A civilization's technology tends to remain fairly stable or advance very gradually until the right circumstances come together to prompt a surge forward, and then it can advance very rapidly. China had all the ingredients for an industrial revolution 700 years before Europe did, but China didn't need one, since it was already a prosperous and successful society as it was. (Europe's industrial revolution was driven mainly by the need to compete with China and pursue its far greater wealth.) And remember, humanity is not a single society, but thousands of them. There are countless examples in human history of a society being introduced to technology well ahead of its own and adopting it successfully. The notion that there's some "natural," steady pace at which technology is "supposed" to advance is completely wrong in every possible way.

As time goes on, attitudes change. What about the reaction of those around the Federation? When an enemy gets a hold of advanced technology that gives them a tactical advantage, how would they feel about it?

How is this even hypothetical? The Federation already has quantum slipstream drive, at least in the novels. That's about as good as transwarp. (Indeed, given that there are so many different ways "transwarp" has been depicted in Trek, I consider it a generic label for any faster-than-warp technology. So slipstream already is a form of transwarp drive, just one with a less generic name.)

There's just no reason to expect different civilizations to advance in lockstep with each other. That doesn't even make sense on one planet, let alone an interstellar setting. Any two neighboring sapient species could be thousands or millions of years apart in the beginnings of their respective space ages. Trek implausibly portrays a setting where most neighboring species are at roughly the same level, but it also includes hyper-advanced species like the Organians, Metrons, Q, Edo God, Douwd, etc. And there are plenty of ancient ruins containing hyper-advanced technologies of various sorts like body-switching devices, time portals, and whatnot. Any spacegoing civilization could happen to come into possession of a technology far more advanced than what they or their neighbors have. If anything, it's practically inevitable.

The Tholians for example, refused to assist the Federation during the Borg crisis. From the conclusion of the crisis, should the Federation have been given advanced technology it could prompt a war. The Tholians might fear for their civilisation and take it upon themselves to declare war on the Federation and take the technology for themselves. That last thing the Caeliar would want is to start a war over something they've given to one culture as a good will gesture.

Again, not hypothetical, because of slipstream. This situation already exists, and we've seen how the Tholians respond to it in Paths of Disharmony.

And why are we talking about the Caeliar giving the Federation transwarp or whatever? I thought the issue on the table was providing aid for postwar reconstruction. How do faster ships alone achieve that goal?

In "Greater Than The Sum", you characterised the Federation as panicking about the Borg gaining Quantum Slipstream technology and thus gaining a tactical advantage. Therefore the Federation went out of their way to stop them by sending the Enterprise to fight the Einstein.

Ummm... the Borg already had an overwhelming tactical advantage over the Federation, due to their already far more advanced technology and their vastly greater numbers. What they didn't have, in the wake of Voyager's destruction of their transwarp network, was a way of reaching Federation space to use that advantage in the near future. The goal was to deny them an alternative means of rapid transgalactic travel. (Which ultimately proved moot when they found the Caeliar subspace corridors. Grrr...)

 

[JRoss]

Don't forget about an incredibly "backward" and "primitive" culture that gained much from receiving technology far ahead of its time, on multiple occasions: Japan.

In both the Sengoku and the Meiji eras Japan was terribly behind the times but caught up with Europe due to European technology. Since that time Japan has now given a benefit to others by innovations in science.

 

[Idran]

Don't forget about an incredibly "backward" and "primitive" culture that gained much from receiving technology far ahead of its time, on multiple occasions: Japan.

In both the Sengoku and the Meiji eras Japan was terribly behind the times but caught up with Europe due to European technology. Since that time Japan has now given a benefit to others by innovations in science.

But on that same note: Ask the Ainu and the Ryukyuan how much their cultures benefited from the influence of the Yamato.

 

[TerraUnam]

Spoiler: Spoiler about Sieze the Fire

The end of Seize the Fire had the knowledge of planetary-scale terraforming technology downloaded into Tuvok's brain and into 2nd Gen White-Blue. That book never established which civilization originated that technology and it ended with a cliffhanger since it didn't say what was going to be done with that tech.

 

[Christopher]

But on that same note: Ask the Ainu and the Ryukyuan how much their cultures benefited from the influence of the Yamato.

Well, yes, and part of the reason for the Prime Directive is a reaction to that risk. But where it's taken too far is in the assumption that the destruction of the less advanced culture is inevitable or automatic, or the fault of that culture's own "inability to cope," as the horrendously misguided TNG: "Homeward" assumed. The fact is, that generally only happens when the more powerful/advanced culture actively tries to eradicate the other culture. Assuming it happens automatically in every possible case is just trying to let our ancestors off the hook for the atrocities they committed. There are certainly counterexamples where the less advanced culture thrived as a result of being exposed to more advanced knowledge, and those examples include Europe and Japan, two cultures that became very prosperous and powerful as a result of that exposure.

Although, then again, that might be another argument in favor of not sharing advanced technology with "primitive" cultures: because if you're not careful, they might use the technology you gave them to conquer or eradicate you.

 

[Idran]

But on that same note: Ask the Ainu and the Ryukyuan how much their cultures benefited from the influence of the Yamato.

Well, yes, and part of the reason for the Prime Directive is a reaction to that risk. But where it's taken too far is in the assumption that the destruction of the less advanced culture is inevitable or automatic, or the fault of that culture's own "inability to cope," as the horrendously misguided TNG: "Homeward" assumed. The fact is, that generally only happens when the more powerful/advanced culture actively tries to eradicate the other culture. Assuming it happens automatically in every possible case is just trying to let our ancestors off the hook for the atrocities they committed. There are certainly counterexamples where the less advanced culture thrived as a result of being exposed to more advanced knowledge, and those examples include Europe and Japan, two cultures that became very prosperous and powerful as a result of that exposure.

Oh, definitely. I'm just saying that in any such interaction, you have to be careful not to fall into patterns of colonialism or imperialism, which personally is part of why I saw the Prime Directive as put into place. Not just to avoid wiping out the people, but to avoid wiping out their culture as well, which can be just as dangerous to the other culture. Even if the Nahuatl, the Native Americans, and the Australian Aborigines still survive as a people, for a few more examples, past atrocities have caused no end of harm to their culture as well. And even actions thought at the time to be benign or even helpful - the whole White Man's Burden concept, for example - can be very harmful. Thus they find it best to stay on the safe side of things and strictly limit any such encounters.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that, mind, since with proper care you can certainly interact in such a manner that you don't cause undue harm to either side (anthropologists do it all the time, after all), but that's how I've always viewed the Federation's justification for the principle.

 

[Christopher]

^Right. The Prime Directive was founded for some very good reasons. But by the 24th century, it seems, the Federation has forgotten those reasons and instead justifies it based on the very arrogant and condescending assumption that the fault is on the side of the natives for being too primitive or too weak to survive the contact, rather than recognizing that it's supposed to be a reminder to the Federation to recognize its own fallibility and trust in the natives' right to make their own choices. And so that leads to abuses of the Prime Directive like the totally insane notion that it's necessary to allow species to die out from natural disasters rather than risk harming them with contact.

And, although this has fewer tangible consequences, it just leads to people making some profoundly wrong assumptions about anthropology and history, such as the ridiculous notion that exposure to outside ideas is some kind of "contamination" and that the "natural" state of affairs for any culture is complete isolation. That's nonsense. It's forgetting that a single planet has many distinct cultures, not just one, and that cultural growth and dynamism comes from the interaction of different cultures. Exposure to outside ideas is natural and normal for a developing culture, and is part of how it develops.

 

[Mr Silver]

Although, then again, that might be another argument in favor of not sharing advanced technology with "primitive" cultures: because if you're not careful, they might use the technology you gave them to conquer or eradicate you.

Well that was my original argument, however it seems to have become wound up with other ideas! I mentioned the transwarp element as an example because it was something the OP mentioned.

How about the Caeliar beliefs regarding pacifism? What if the Federation requested advanced technology to help them rebuild, but this technology could also be perverted into an advanced weapon? I'd imagine the Caeliar would deny the request based on that possibility.

 

[Christopher]

^Again, I don't get how this is about transwarp. I thought the issue was reconstruction assistance. And now that the Federation already has slipstream, a drive that can cross the galaxy in days, getting transwarp too would be rather redundant.

 

[Mr Silver]

^Again, I don't get how this is about transwarp. I thought the issue was reconstruction assistance. And now that the Federation already has slipstream, a drive that can cross the galaxy in days, getting transwarp too would be rather redundant.

As I mentioned in my post, the OP suggested transwarp and I merely went along with that possibility. I got the impression that the transwarp the OP was thinking of was the version seen in "Threshold" (without the mutation effects). Hypothetically, if that was the case it would make slipstream redundant. Instead of crossing the galaxy in days, they could be anywhere in the universe instantly.

My whole argument about that was based on the principle that if the Federation could go anywhere they want instantly, it could negatively influence the rest of the AQ and resort in a war.

Anyway that's nothing to do with the thread and it simply came about as an expansion upon what a couple of other posters were discussing.

Asides from all this, I still don't understand myself why the Caeliar should feel the need to give the Federation reparations when they did them a huge favour by getting rid of the Borg threat permanently. Sure, we could argue that the Caeliar were responsible for the Borg in the first place, but that wouldn't be totally sound because Sedin acted alone without the Quorum's approval. It's not exactly an entire civilisation's fault for the acts of one person.