Starfleet vs. Klingons (who wins)

[Sisko4Life]

Had a discussion with a friend the other day who is an avid TNG fan, and she is convinced that the Klingons were made "too powerful" and would wipe the floor with the Feds. I told her I only agree with that to a point prior to the Borg Incursion of 2366, when Starfleet's combat skills were laughable. This was even supported by Yesterday's Enterprise. However, after 2366 and when Starfleet met the Dominion, their mobilization efforts created a MUCH stronger foe, and I feel like it would actually be the other way around and that the Feds would actually defeat the Klingons. Arguments?

Ship Match-ups. Starfleet vessels circa 2370s were just flat out stronger than Klingon vessels. We are given no indication of how strong a Negh'Var actually is and if the Klingon Empire actually built more (I doubt it do to political concerns), but we can assume that it is somewhere between a Galaxy and Sovereign Class based on sheer size. We never see it engaged against other ships. Other than that, Galaxy, Nebula, and Akira classes take a shit on Vor'chas, the Defiant outguns Bird of Prey's comfortably, we don't know if K'Vort's even really exist, and Starfleet still has many different designs out there.

Fleet Numbers This is tough to judge, because of so little on-screen evidence. Personally, I would estimate that the Federation fleet is at least 50% larger than the Klingon fleet due to how many attack fighters were produced. It just seems like the Klingon Empire during the war was more tentative than the Feds at committing ships to engagements. The Feds had at least ten defense fleets, and if we estimate them as all 100+ ships (2 of them made up the 600 for Operation return, so probably more), we will get a figure of 1000-3000 combat ready. In the Changing Face of Evil we hear "A large part of the Klingon military" is 1500 ships sent to the front line. In WAy of the Warrior "several hundred ships comprising of 1/3 of their military." So who knows...

Tactics Klingon's biggest advantage here, though the Feds seem to be improving by the end of the Dominion War. Federation like to retreat, Klingon refuse to retreat. But Klingon politics seem to really hamper their wartime efforts coughGowroncough.

On Screen evidence Only thing we get is the brief war where the Feds seem to comfortably halt the Klingon advance, and were actually campaigning to push them back along the border. Ohh, we get the quick retreat at the sight of 6 starships at DS9 also.

Section 31 When in desparation, we will just create a biogenic weapon in the form of a virus and kill off the Klingons completely. It's not like we aren't familiar with Klingon anatomy... Just don't tell anyone :-O

Anyway, thoughts?

 

[mupps]

Klingon refuse to retreat.

They retreated a good few times during the "war" against the Fed and when they were driven out of cardassian space by the dominion.
They sent a fleet to conquer the Breen and it was wiped out.
Klingon's talk a good game but are they really all that?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Whoever wins... We lose.

 

[Rojixus]

Put my money on the Klingons! In Yesterday's Enterprise, the Klingons pretty much had the Federation on the run and was a month or so away from defeating the Federation entirely. The Klingons thoroughly pasted the Cardassians when all the Federation could do was fight the Cardies to a standstill. In yet another alternate timeline, the Klingons managed to conquer the Romulan Empire, the same Romulan Empire that thought it could successfully invade one of the founding members of the Federation with only 2000 troops!

 

[SFRabid]

Klingons get over confident, take on too much, and get in trouble. They would start with the Federation, the Romulans would see an opportunity to take a few systems from them and then they would go full force against the Romulans not worrying about splitting their forces.

 

[Deks]

I was never too sold on the idea of the Federation losing in Yesterday's Enterprise.
The differential between the two powers is simply large enough to tip the scales into Feds favor.
Besides, we don't know for sure if Picard was telling the truth to Garret or not when he said the war was going badly for the Federation.
For all we know, he could have told her that just to motivate her to go into the rift (she was rather reluctant).

And as for the fight with the Dominion... with everything we have seen, the Feds should have been able to take on the Dominion all by themselves (the Dominion mentioned on several occasions that the Federation is 'vast' and that once they get rid of the Klingons and the Romulans 'the only real threat would be the Federation' - directly implying that the Feds pose a significant enough problem for the Dominion alone to handle).

But, drama came first (as always).

 

[Nerys Myk]

When the Klingons get their own show or movie, then they'll win. Till then, Federation FTW.

 

[Paradon]

Klingon would! That's why the Fed signed the peace treaty with them to keep them off their butt. In the parallel universe they actually were winning the war...Picard said they might actually have to surrender....

 

[Caesar753]

Klingons get over confident, take on too much, and get in trouble. They would start with the Federation, the Romulans would see an opportunity to take a few systems from them and then they would go full force against the Romulans not worrying about splitting their forces.

I think you're on to something here. I believe that the Klingons are certainly tough and great warriors, but from what we've seen they can be impulsive. I think the Klingons would hit the Federation hard, but I don't think they would develop a long term strategy and thus would fall victim to the Fed's superior planning and tactics.

 

[Mr Silver]

I would say that Starfleet would probably win. The trouble (as other posters have mentioned) with the Klingons is their overconfidence and impulsiveness. Sure, we've seen the Klingons organised during the Dominion War but this is a different scenario.

If this was a war based on ground combat, the Klingons would probably win. That is because their entire defense force is trained to fight. It's part of their culture whereas in Starfleet, fighting isn't mandatory.

In terms of space combat, Starfleet would win hands down. They have the more advanced ships, perhaps lesser numbers but they definitely have the tactical advantage. Given the Klingons reluctance to make retreats, I'd imagine that Starfleet would lose just under half their fleet by the time the war is over.

 

[Paradon]

A good way to piss off the Klingons is to kill someone they are closed to and love...such as a member of their family or Toby the Tarq like we saw when Kirk had to fight off the Klingon Bird of Prey.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A good way to piss off the Klingons is to kill someone they are closed to and love...such as a member of their family or Toby the Tarq like we saw when Kirk had to fight off the Klingon Bird of Prey.

That might be true for non-Klingons as well.

 

[Paradon]

But a Klingon would probably peel your skin off and make you watch him wear it... [chuckle]

 

[Rojixus]

Klingons get over confident, take on too much, and get in trouble. They would start with the Federation, the Romulans would see an opportunity to take a few systems from them and then they would go full force against the Romulans not worrying about splitting their forces.

I think you're on to something here. I believe that the Klingons are certainly tough and great warriors, but from what we've seen they can be impulsive. I think the Klingons would hit the Federation hard, but I don't think they would develop a long term strategy and thus would fall victim to the Fed's superior planning and tactics.

And yet, in Yesterday's Enterprise, the Klingons had the Federation on the edge of defeat after twenty years of war. Granted it was an alternate timeline, but there was no indication that the Klingons of that timeline were any different than the Klingons of this timeline. Let us not forget the Klingon's success against the Cardassians. In a few months, the Cardassians were nearly conquered by the Klingons while all the Federation could manage was a poorly-constructed cease-fire.

 

[Scotchyn]

We are forgetting the most important part which is economies and logistics...here is where the Federation would have the biggest advantage. The Federation as a whole works together, while the Empire would seem to have a harder time getting some of their subjugated worlds producing enough of what they need to keep the fight going. While the initial losses would be very heavy, The Federation would have a much easier time replacing wartime losses than the Klingons, unless the Klingons pull off one heck of a surprise attack that destroys a good portion of the Fleet or some very critical infrastructure

 

[Sisko4Life]

And yet, in Yesterday's Enterprise, the Klingons had the Federation on the edge of defeat after twenty years of war. Granted it was an alternate timeline, but there was no indication that the Klingons of that timeline were any different than the Klingons of this timeline. Let us not forget the Klingon's success against the Cardassians. In a few months, the Cardassians were nearly conquered by the Klingons while all the Federation could manage was a poorly-constructed cease-fire.

I said in the OP its hard to take that seriously because the Federation was ill-prepared for any extended military conflict before contact with the Borg and later the Dominion. We didn't see Akira, Defiant, Sovereign, Steamrunner, Sabre, and Prometheus class vessels, which were all combat orientated. So given that timeline, I would expect the Klingons to win. But after the Federation finally realized there were things out there that could steamroll its fleet it made serious enhancements.

And, the Cardassians are pretty much a joke militarily. Their technology was stifled by their lack of resources.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

On Screen evidence Only thing we get is the brief war where the Feds seem to comfortably halt the Klingon advance, and were actually campaigning to push them back along the border. Ohh, we get the quick retreat at the sight of 6 starships at DS9 also.

I got the impression that Gowron stood down from battle after being swayed by Sisko, that all out war between the Empire and the UFP was what the Dominion wanted--and he wasn't going to be used as their pawn in that.

But anyways, as to the actual question. I would have to say the Klingons would win. Yes the have a code of honour, but those in the military are warriors and will fight to win. The UFP doesn't fight dirty (in "Rocks & Shoals" they discuss the ethics of killing the Jem'hadar in an ambush, Garak is the only one that states they need to do whatever is necessary to win).

The Klingons also have cloaking devices which would always give them an edge. Then in the TNG episode "Emissary", an old K't'inga-Class battlecruiser gives the E-D a good...eh...pounding before they are tricked into standing down.

By the end of the war S31 was predicting the Klingons to spend years rebuilding, so they obviously threw a lot more into the conflict that the UFP or Romulans.

Whilst it would be nice to saw that humanity (and by extension the Federation) would win, an explorer pitted against a warrior is always more likely to lose.

But that's just my rambling thoughts on the matter.

 

[cwl]

I think the Klingons would win, simply because they would WANT it more. The Klingons would pour in huge amount of resources to win the fight at ANY cost.

The Federation has the technology, the resources and the capability but they lack the WILL. They would most likely sue for peace while the Klingons would happily sacrifice hundreds, if not thousands of ships along with millions of people. Just to Win. I also think the Vor'Cha and Negh'Var ships are very good warships. Yes the K'tinga and BoPs are old and probably need replacing but I would expect the Klingons to do all that as part of a massive rebuilding program following the Dominion War.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Then in the TNG episode "Emissary", an old K't'inga-Class battlecruiser gives the E-D a good...eh...pounding before they are tricked into standing down.

Actually I believe they didn't and the only reason the Enterprise didn't blow them to hell was Picard didn't want to.

Put my money on the Klingons! In Yesterday's Enterprise, the Klingons pretty much had the Federation on the run and was a month or so away from defeating the Federation entirely.

Yeah considering they started the war after TUC I don't buy it. Plus Picard could have been lying.

The Klingons thoroughly pasted the Cardassians when all the Federation could do was fight the Cardies to a standstill.

Considering the fed's war with the Cardies was apparently during seasons 1 and 2 of TNG it didn't seem like a big war and likely Starfleet didn't have all their ships involved. Meaning they probably could of wiped the Cardassian Union off the map, but didn't care enough to try.

In yet another alternate timeline, the Klingons managed to conquer the Romulan Empire, the same Romulan Empire that thought it could successfully invade one of the founding members of the Federation with only 2000 troops!

1) We don't know much about how the Romulans fell, so you can't use that as a basis of the klingons abilities

and

2) Considering Sela's plan involved assuming the Feds wouldn't send Starfleet end to kick their asses I wouldn't use that as an example of Romulan military might.

 

[Rojixus]

And yet, in Yesterday's Enterprise, the Klingons had the Federation on the edge of defeat after twenty years of war. Granted it was an alternate timeline, but there was no indication that the Klingons of that timeline were any different than the Klingons of this timeline. Let us not forget the Klingon's success against the Cardassians. In a few months, the Cardassians were nearly conquered by the Klingons while all the Federation could manage was a poorly-constructed cease-fire.

I said in the OP its hard to take that seriously because the Federation was ill-prepared for any extended military conflict before contact with the Borg and later the Dominion. We didn't see Akira, Defiant, Sovereign, Steamrunner, Sabre, and Prometheus class vessels, which were all combat orientated. So given that timeline, I would expect the Klingons to win. But after the Federation finally realized there were things out there that could steamroll its fleet it made serious enhancements.

And, the Cardassians are pretty much a joke militarily. Their technology was stifled by their lack of resources.

Mind you, the only Federation ships we saw in that episode were the Galaxy-class and Ambassador-class. For all we know, those other classes were all out there fighting the good fight but were never mentioned by Picard or the others because they had more important things on their mind than discussing what classes of starships they had. Also, Picard is not one to tell out and out falsehoods, if he says the Federation is months away from defeat, it's safe to take him at his word.

If anything, the Federation should have more military-oriented ships than the main timeline because the Federation has been in a state of war for over 20 years. Despite all this, the Federation was still about to loose the war.