My Thoughts on Immigration

[TerokNor]

It depends. Generally, you do need to prove some fluency in German nowadays. I think there's some leeway with family reunions and also with spouses.
I'm pretty sure that nearly all the people who are actually citizens and live here do speak German to some degree. It can be pretty broken in the case of first generation immigrants. Due to the intricacies of citizenship law a lot of immigrants, even second and third generation, aren't citizens.
I had a hard time today explaining some basic things to one of the patients at my work place today because his German is so bad. That happens occasionally. Basic fluency can be very basic and so basic that communication beyond very simple exchanges becomes virtually impossible. I guess that's what TerokNor meant.

*nods* Yes. I mostly know it from children, who come very late into kindergarten (with 5 for example), before school starts with 6 and thats their first and only contact with the german language. So when they are 6 they surly speak some German, but not as good as the other children, who either talk German at home or who already visited kindergarten/preschool/nursery for the last 3, 4 or 5 years. So some children already get problems in school because of this. Or they get problems, because the parents cannot help with homework, as they cannot read it in German. Though I suppose now with more and more whole day schools and such coming along that will get better.

As for becoming a citizen I think one has to do a test to prove a certain knowledge of the german law, culture and language.
But not everyone living here for quite some time has the german citizenship like Count Zero already wrote.

TerokNor

 

[MacLeod]

I suspect a lot of countries crapple with the language issue, I don't think it is unreasonable for there to be a requiremnet for you to speak the language of the country you have choosen to emigrate to, whether that be English, French, German, Spanish, Japanese etc..

 

[Roger Wilco]

No it's not unreasonable, but the question is how you enforce it. Would you deport someone who's maybe just not smart enough to learn a new language as an adult? Certainly the schools have to teach the language of the country though.

 

[TerokNor]

No it's not unreasonable, but the question is how you enforce it. Would you deport someone who's maybe just not smart enough to learn a new language as an adult? Certainly the schools have to teach the language of the country though.

People who are not capable of doing the test for citizenship, because of very old age or handicap, or when they are under 16 don´t have to do it. So guess they would get citizenship when other family members, who are capable of doing the test, which also means learning the language, pass?

TerokNor

 

[Sean Aaron]

ALL would be deported together if they got caught.

If someone comes illegally who is pregnant or has any illness, emergency medical care should be rendered and they should be given food and something to drink, but I don't think our obligations should go any further than that.

Pretty much what happens here. You don't get automatic citizenship just because you're born in the UK, so you'd just deport the lot.

Not like the US has never turned people away or persecuted entire ethnic groups before (anti-Chinese laws anyone?), so I don't really see why the law couldn't be changed.

 

[Count Zero]

In response to RogerWilco and TerokNor:

There are also states of being between deportation and becoming a citizen. So, no, people shouldn't be deported just because they don't speak the local language.
There are also ways to get German citizenship where you don't have to prove you speak the language or know anything about the country, but it's a good idea to know these things if you want to stay here for good.
Personally, I'd let everyone stay who wants to but that's probably why I'm not in charge of anything.

 

[spooky spice]

A few years ago Ireland suddenly experienced an economic boom, we went from being one of the poorest nations in Yerp to one of the richest, in the space of about 5 years.

Thousands of Eastern Europeans came here and found work - doing the jobs no Irish person would now lower themselves to do. There were also hundreds of asylum seekers and refugees from Africa.

Then the economy collapsed and everything is being blamed on the Immigrants and Asylum Seekers.

Social Welfare benefits are being cut left right and centre because tax payers are fed up of "funding spongers", many people had their benefits cut off or reduced severely as a result of complaints about them being made to the authorities, on appeal over 40% of them get their benefits re-instated, of the 60% who don't a fair number of them didn't appeal the decision.

I hate living here now, and would love to leave, but I can't go anywhere other than somewhere else in Europe...

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Not that I favor strict immigration laws (although I don't favor festival seating, either), but I'll answer this. In many cases, obviously, deportation is not an option; but neither would I favor immunity for people who hurt others by cheating. The kids should be left alone, but the parents should be held responsible.

"Held responsible" how? That's the part I'd like an answer to. You seem to think something specific should be done to hold the parents accountable. Well, what? That's what no one seems to have an answer for, other than "deport them!"

Let's put the question in a context that removes the political baggage of immigration: Imagine a man and woman who, twenty years ago, robbed a bank or embezzled funds or otherwise came into a large sum of money illegally. They used it as a nest egg to buy a house and car. Eventually, they had four kids and used the money to raise them and put them in private school. Then the police finally catch up with them. How would you deal with this?

I don't think the two situations are comparable, but let's assume the statute of limitations hasn't passed. The parents would have to be tried and convicted and their ill-gotten gains would have to be seized. Presumably, that would send the kids to other family members or, barring that, foster care. I assume that's what happens when parents go prison.

But illegal immigration isn't like robbing a bank, and I would consider income from the jobs illegal immigrants get to be ill-gotten gains the way proceeds from a robbery would be. An illegal immigrant works for their money, same as anyone else--they just tend to get less of it.

The point is that in both cases they broke the law and cheated other people, but did it for the good of their family. Do they get punished or do you let them off because the ends justify the means? I don't have the perfect solution to either scenario, but there should be some ramifications to breaking the law.

To say they both "cheated other people" is at best a distortion, and at worst a lie. Robbers steal directly from others. Illegal immigrants steal from no one, and in fact are often exploited themselves. This is the attitude that pisses me off: that illegal immigrants are just sleazy criminals who've come here to leech off of hardworking real Americans.

I'm fine with there being some consequences--fines, tax penalties, an extended legal immigration process, etc. Those do make some sense, but at the same time we need to get them on the radar and have them documented so they don't have to live in fear and worry about being caught and deported when they just want to work here and make better lives for themselves and their children.

So, something just feels a bit wrong to me, to take people like that and cast them out, when they want the same things everyone else here wants.

 

[Trelane]

I think the U.S. & Canada should close its borders (temporarily) to immigration until we figure out how to employ those that are here legally.

We need to shake the tree and rattle loose those (citizens and immigrants) that that are looking for a free comfortable ride on welfare, disability, slip-and-fall settlements/lawsuits etc., have kids they can't afford for stupid reasons, and aren't prepared to re-train, take pay cuts, join the military, or take the lesser, unglamorous jobs cleaning toilets or doing landscaping, etc.


We need islands to deport these people to, where they're free to live any way they want and see how far their attitudes will take them. And see how long it'll be before they're taking their issues out on each other.

 

[Canadave]

I think the U.S. & Canada should close its borders (temporarily) to immigration until we figure out how to employ those that are here legally.

We need to shake the tree and rattle loose those (citizens and immigrants) that that are looking for a free comfortable ride on welfare, disability, slip-and-fall settlements/lawsuits etc., have kids they can't afford for stupid reasons, and aren't prepared to re-train, take pay cuts, join the military, or take the lesser, unglamorous jobs cleaning toilets or doing landscaping, etc.


We need islands to deport these people to, where they're free to live any way they want and see how far their attitudes will take them. And see how long it'll be before they're taking their issues out on each other.

Uh, no. Just no.

 

[Nick086]

I think the U.S. & Canada should close its borders (temporarily) to immigration until we figure out how to employ those that are here legally.

We need to shake the tree and rattle loose those (citizens and immigrants) that that are looking for a free comfortable ride on welfare, disability, slip-and-fall settlements/lawsuits etc., have kids they can't afford for stupid reasons, and aren't prepared to re-train, take pay cuts, join the military, or take the lesser, unglamorous jobs cleaning toilets or doing landscaping, etc.


We need islands to deport these people to, where they're free to live any way they want and see how far their attitudes will take them. And see how long it'll be before they're taking their issues out on each other.

That would displease a lot of the rich white southwesterns and Cailifornians

 

[iguana_tonante]

I think the U.S. & Canada should close its borders (temporarily) to immigration until we figure out how to employ those that are here legally.

We need to shake the tree and rattle loose those (citizens and immigrants) that that are looking for a free comfortable ride on welfare, disability, slip-and-fall settlements/lawsuits etc., have kids they can't afford for stupid reasons, and aren't prepared to re-train, take pay cuts, join the military, or take the lesser, unglamorous jobs cleaning toilets or doing landscaping, etc.

We need islands to deport these people to, where they're free to live any way they want and see how far their attitudes will take them. And see how long it'll be before they're taking their issues out on each other.

Uh, no. Just no.

Ugh. I hope it's a (tasteless) joke.

 

[Trelane]

I'm not joking. There are a lot of people out there I'd love to see get their "entitled" butts kicked. I'm all for good hard working, law-abiding people. But unfortunately, every few years you need to shake things up and somehow get certain people to realize their lives could be a lot worse such as those living on the other side of the world in Africa, etc.

And I'd love to see Karma delivered unto those ~doing~ the exploiting of those in lesser positions of opportunity.

Such as those people in retail management who feel the undeniable need to crack verbal whips at employees out of pure emotional immaturity than genuinely-required motivation.

A job is a job in this economy. Be happy if - at this point - you still have one. Even if you're not getting that many hours. Don't grumble, just bite your tongue and power through the day as best you can. Things should eventually balance themselves out once those in authority figure out what's fair and, through due process, penalize the rest.

The only way we're going to sort out the messes, is a temporary closing of the borders to immigration until we get things back on track (more or less).

I see this as possible if we can just get people to line-up and figure out a general responsible sense of tourism's destiny in the next few years. Figure out market versus social housing (see how much we can steer to social housing from abandoned stock.)

And what powers the federal authorities, states, counties, provinces, etc. have in re-claiming abandoned properties (warehouses, homes, etc.) in the sub-prime mortgage bubble-burst situation to get employable / tax-paying people on their feet with some of these abandoned properties via renting them (thus recovering lost revenue in low yields at first,) from the government.

Then re-open the borders to immigration. Encourage people to join "Hometown Heroes"-style projects from Income Assistance programs.

We should turn back developers' urges to turn every free inch of space into condos and start building / re-opening existing RV Parks as there are going to be lots of people (ie: truck drivers) seeking work that might require sales and some travel on a commission-only basis and need to frequently change addresses/locations.

We should stop building huge multi-screen theaters as there's money to be made in drive-in's with people on the road as much as citizens/immigrants will be in the next few years, looking for seasonal or permanent (part-time/full-time) employment.

 

[RoJoHen]

It may not be a popular opinion, but I can understand where Trelane is coming from, at least as far as the job market is concerned. We have such a ridiculous unemployment level in the United States right now that isn't being helped by more and more people entering the country. I encounter so many capable people every day that don't work and have no intention of getting/holding a job because they've been surviving on unemployment and welfare for so long that they either a) don't think they need to work, b) can't find a job, or c) think they are "too good" for the jobs available.

It's not really an immigration issue as much as it is a general over-population/shitty job market issue, but still, more immigrants = more people = fewer jobs to go around.

 

[RJDiogenes]

To say they both "cheated other people" is at best a distortion, and at worst a lie.

No, it's the truth. The best thing you can say is that they've cut in line ahead of people who are willing to go through the process legally.

Robbers steal directly from others. Illegal immigrants steal from no one, and in fact are often exploited themselves. This is the attitude that pisses me off: that illegal immigrants are just sleazy criminals who've come here to leech off of hardworking real Americans.

Good thing I never said that.

I'm fine with there being some consequences--fines, tax penalties, an extended legal immigration process, etc. Those do make some sense, but at the same time we need to get them on the radar and have them documented so they don't have to live in fear and worry about being caught and deported when they just want to work here and make better lives for themselves and their children.

So, something just feels a bit wrong to me, to take people like that and cast them out, when they want the same things everyone else here wants.

Then I guess you agree with me.

 

[Deckerd]

ALL would be deported together if they got caught.

If someone comes illegally who is pregnant or has any illness, emergency medical care should be rendered and they should be given food and something to drink, but I don't think our obligations should go any further than that.

Pretty much what happens here. You don't get automatic citizenship just because you're born in the UK, so you'd just deport the lot.

Not like the US has never turned people away or persecuted entire ethnic groups before (anti-Chinese laws anyone?), so I don't really see why the law couldn't be changed.

Presumably you know about the thousands of fleeing Jews they refused entry during the Second Unpleasantness?

 

[Sean Aaron]

Presumably you know about the thousands of fleeing Jews they refused entry during the Second Unpleasantness?

Of course. I really don't think shipping off illegals to "an island" is at odds with America's legacy regarding immigrants and refugees at all.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

ALL would be deported together if they got caught.

If someone comes illegally who is pregnant or has any illness, emergency medical care should be rendered and they should be given food and something to drink, but I don't think our obligations should go any further than that.

Pretty much what happens here. You don't get automatic citizenship just because you're born in the UK, so you'd just deport the lot.

Not like the US has never turned people away or persecuted entire ethnic groups before (anti-Chinese laws anyone?), so I don't really see why the law couldn't be changed.

Presumably you know about the thousands of fleeing Jews they refused entry during the Second Unpleasantness?

Obviously that was stupid. Given that they required political asylum to save their lives, they should've gone to the head of the line.

I kind of put that in the same category as rendering emergency medical care--that is what a decent human being must do. If you will be killed or tortured in your home country, then we should be offering shelter.

If you simply are looking for work or a change of scene, then you should follow proper procedure.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

If you simply are looking for work or a change of scene, then you should follow proper procedure.

And what if you're trying to escape an area rife with drug trafficking and gang violence? Is it okay to flee across the border with your family in that case, even if it's illegal? Does that meet your arbitrary criteria?

"Change of scene." Wow. How fucking callous can you be? Yeah, Mexicans just come here for a little bit more money and nicer scenery.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I'm not joking.

Shame on you then.

There are a lot of people out there I'd love to see get their "entitled" butts kicked.

Funny how people who say that are usually the ones who come whining when things don't go their way.

Such as those people in retail management who feel the undeniable need to crack verbal whips at employees out of pure emotional immaturity than genuinely-required motivation.

Case in point. And now I think we know the reason of your (sadly misdirected) anger and resentment.

If you simply are looking for work or a change of scene, then you should follow proper procedure.

And what if you're trying to escape an area rife with drug trafficking and gang violence? Is it okay to flee across the border with your family in that case, even if it's illegal? Does that meet your arbitrary criteria?

"Change of scene." Wow. How fucking callous can you be? Yeah, Mexicans just come here for a little bit more money and nicer scenery.

You don't understand. That was because of religious persecution. That makes it ok.

People who are just starving, getting killed, or running away from poverty? Let them die. God is not on their side.