My Thoughts on Immigration

[RJDiogenes]

Yes but it's a bit like shouting "I love my wife" randomly in the middle of threads, isn't it? Unless it's a thread about relationships, it's not really relevant.

But it is relevant. One of the things that makes this country great is its diversity, which results from immigration.

Not just "I love my wife", but "My wife is the greatest wife on Earth!".

If I had a wife, she would be the greatest wife on Earth.

 

[RJDiogenes]

So, those who favor strict immigration law enforcement, deportation, etc., how would you deal with this?

Not that I favor strict immigration laws (although I don't favor festival seating, either), but I'll answer this. In many cases, obviously, deportation is not an option; but neither would I favor immunity for people who hurt others by cheating. The kids should be left alone, but the parents should be held responsible.

Let's put the question in a context that removes the political baggage of immigration: Imagine a man and woman who, twenty years ago, robbed a bank or embezzled funds or otherwise came into a large sum of money illegally. They used it as a nest egg to buy a house and car. Eventually, they had four kids and used the money to raise them and put them in private school. Then the police finally catch up with them. How would you deal with this?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I find it very sad that there are so many people in this country that are anti-immigrant.

It's never been any other way. We've survived.

Besides, barring an invasion of smelly Klingons, no immigrant group will ever beat the Irish for sheer offensiveness.

Although I myself am mainly proud of the values and principals that the country was founded on.

That's the one and only sane basis for patriotism, applied to any country. Being patriotic because of food, etc is what strikes me as absurd. Do other countries not have food?

 

[doubleohfive]

I find it very sad that there are so many people in this country that are anti-immigrant.

It's never been any other way. We've survived.

Besides, barring an invasion of smelly Klingons, no immigrant group will ever beat the Irish for sheer offensiveness.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I find it very sad that there are so many people in this country that are anti-immigrant.

It's never been any other way. We've survived.

Besides, barring an invasion of smelly Klingons, no immigrant group will ever beat the Irish for sheer offensiveness.

Well, I guess the Ferengi would be pretty bad, too.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I find it very sad that there are so many people in this country that are anti-immigrant.

It's never been any other way. We've survived.

Besides, barring an invasion of smelly Klingons, no immigrant group will ever beat the Irish for sheer offensiveness.

I come from an Irish family. She's right.

 

[Gov Kodos]

So, those who favor strict immigration law enforcement, deportation, etc., how would you deal with this?

Not that I favor strict immigration laws (although I don't favor festival seating, either), but I'll answer this. In many cases, obviously, deportation is not an option; but neither would I favor immunity for people who hurt others by cheating. The kids should be left alone, but the parents should be held responsible.

Let's put the question in a context that removes the political baggage of immigration: Imagine a man and woman who, twenty years ago, robbed a bank or embezzled funds or otherwise came into a large sum of money illegally. They used it as a nest egg to buy a house and car. Eventually, they had four kids and used the money to raise them and put them in private school. Then the police finally catch up with them. How would you deal with this?

Like some kind of Massachusetts (ethnically Irish family perhaps?) who might perhaps get involved in running alcohol during Prohibition. Perhaps later getting some kids into politics for instance? No, never happen.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Far fetched, I'll admit....

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

I find it very sad that there are so many people in this country that are anti-immigrant.

It's never been any other way. We've survived.

Besides, barring an invasion of smelly Klingons, no immigrant group will ever beat the Irish for sheer offensiveness.

Although I myself am mainly proud of the values and principals that the country was founded on.

That's the one and only sane basis for patriotism, applied to any country. Being patriotic because of food, etc is what strikes me as absurd. Do other countries not have food?

Well ... most of Africa seems not to ...


Too soon?

 

[iguana_tonante]

Not just "I love my wife", but "My wife is the greatest wife on Earth!".

If I had a wife, she would be the greatest wife on Earth.

I suppose that's why she is just a fantasy in your head. Just like your "greatest" country, I guess.

Although I myself am mainly proud of the values and principals that the country was founded on.

That's the one and only sane basis for patriotism, applied to any country. Being patriotic because of food, etc is what strikes me as absurd. Do other countries not have food?

No. Not really. Not on the same level. Trust me.

Joking aside, I suppose I can ask you the same question: do other countries not have values and principles?

But I suppose I already know your answer for that.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

So, those who favor strict immigration law enforcement, deportation, etc., how would you deal with this?

Not that I favor strict immigration laws (although I don't favor festival seating, either), but I'll answer this. In many cases, obviously, deportation is not an option; but neither would I favor immunity for people who hurt others by cheating. The kids should be left alone, but the parents should be held responsible.

"Held responsible" how? That's the part I'd like an answer to. You seem to think something specific should be done to hold the parents accountable. Well, what? That's what no one seems to have an answer for, other than "deport them!"

Let's put the question in a context that removes the political baggage of immigration: Imagine a man and woman who, twenty years ago, robbed a bank or embezzled funds or otherwise came into a large sum of money illegally. They used it as a nest egg to buy a house and car. Eventually, they had four kids and used the money to raise them and put them in private school. Then the police finally catch up with them. How would you deal with this?

I don't think the two situations are comparable, but let's assume the statute of limitations hasn't passed. The parents would have to be tried and convicted and their ill-gotten gains would have to be seized. Presumably, that would send the kids to other family members or, barring that, foster care. I assume that's what happens when parents go prison.

But illegal immigration isn't like robbing a bank, and I would not consider income from the jobs illegal immigrants get to be ill-gotten gains the way proceeds from a robbery would be. An illegal immigrant works for their money, same as anyone else--they just tend to get less of it.

 

[ShamelessMcBundy]

They're all Communists!

 

[Kail]

I don't ever hear anyone saying they are anti immigration, they are anti ILLEGAL immigration. There is a BIG difference.

I've yet to meet a single person who has had an immigrant 'take their job'.

Hi, hello, nice to meet you. I have lost many floorcovering jobs to companies that use illegal immigrant labor. They pay them WAY less then I pay my legal workers. I also, by law, have to pay their workers comp, which an employer of illegals does not do.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'd like to put forth an example. It's not even a made-up one--it's something that really does happen, and I'm curious to know how those who want strict immigration law enforcement would deal with it.

Say a family comes to the US illegally from Mexico. They have two kids already. They come here and have two more. So, now you've got two parents who are not citizens, two kids who are not citizens, and two kids who are citizens. However, all four kids grow up here and think of themselves as Americans, speak both English and Spanish fluently, and want nothing more than to stay here, go to school, get jobs, and have good careers.

What do you do with families like this? The second you find out about them, deport the lot? Just the non-citizens, putting the other kids in foster care? What?

I ask because some people still speak of illegal immigration as though it's possible in any way to deport over 10 million people. I think we have to deal with the reality of it instead, meaning most of the people who have come here came to work and build lives for themselves, not engage in criminal activities.

So, those who favor strict immigration law enforcement, deportation, etc., how would you deal with this?

Well, first, there are some things that should be fixed to prevent any recurrences of such a problem.

We do something that no other nation does: grant citizenship just because someone came over here and had a baby--either by coincidence, or (which happens in some cases) doing it on purpose so as to manipulate the law and avoid getting kicked out of the country. This should not happen; citizenship should be that of the parents, so a separation of a family should never be happening in the first place; ALL would be deported together if they got caught.

If someone comes illegally who is pregnant or has any illness, emergency medical care should be rendered and they should be given food and something to drink, but I don't think our obligations should go any further than that.

I think that what the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to do--end the disenfranchisement of slaves--was right. That HAD to be fixed. What I don't agree with is the extension of that to people who broke the law to come here. The former slaves did not break the law to come here; they were victims of abuse who had no choice in the matter. People who come here illegally have a choice. But the fact that a law could allow creating "anchor babies"--which can and does lead to the kind of bad situation you describe--doesn't seem right to me.

That, along with getting far better security along our borders, have got to be dealt with first, before any other meaningful policy can be put into place.



Once that's handled...then I think we have to deal with the situation as it exists, and splitting families and deporting everyone without any further offenses on their criminal records isn't really going to work. But this is only after we stop alternating between cycles of (shitty) enforcement where floods of people come here illegally anyway because of all the incentives drawing them here (like being allowed to mooch off of government services despite not being entitled to them, and of course the whole anchor baby provision) and amnesty.

Had the Bush plan back in '06 handled these things in the correct order--getting border security handled and addressing the "anchor baby" loophole closed before beginning the Z-visa program--I think it actually would've worked. What I think we ought to do is get some sort of restitution* for the crime of coming here illegally, and then begin a path to citizenship.

*At this time, back taxes or another sort of significant fine is coming to mind, since they have been taking resources they were not legally entitled to. Probably a different sort of fine rather than back taxes, since some illegals were employed off the books and exploited. But a fine makes the most sense. (If you get caught here after the stronger border enforcement and end of the anchor-baby provision, at that point--you should get deported. We can't complain about how bad illegal immigration is if we incentivize it.)

But they should HAVE to get in the back of the line. People who came here legally should not be penalized because of this.

And anyone with a criminal record should not be allowed to participate in this program. If, instead of deporting 10 million people, you're deporting those who committed further criminal acts, you've reduced the logistical nightmare significantly.

The only thing that should allow a person who came here illegally to skip ahead in line, under such a program, is military service. If you are willing to put your life on the line for this country for two or three years, expedited citizenship is your due.



But none of this will work without eliminating the anchor-baby provision and getting REAL border security so the enforcement-amnesty-enforcement-amnesty cycle stops.



And of course, to anyone who comes here LEGALLY--bring it on; I'll be the first one to bring out the welcome wagon.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Thank you for your detailed answer, Nerys. I agree with better border control and deporting people who commit here and commit crimes, but I can't agree with you on the anchor baby issue.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Obviously I don't want to rip up the whole Fourteenth Amendment to fix the anchor baby problem--but I think it has to be fixed or this cycle, where we are incentivizing an illegal act in a major way ("Come here! We have cookies! Oh, no, they're coming! BAD! BAD! BAD!"), will not stop.

 

[sidious618]

Illegal immigration is a thorny issue but what I find funny is that a lot of illegal immigrants are now leaving America because of the lack of jobs. I guess Bush and the Republicans really did find a way to fight illegal immigration: sink the economy!

 

[Canadave]

I don't ever hear anyone saying they are anti immigration, they are anti ILLEGAL immigration. There is a BIG difference.

I've yet to meet a single person who has had an immigrant 'take their job'.

Hi, hello, nice to meet you. I have lost many floorcovering jobs to companies that use illegal immigrant labor. They pay them WAY less then I pay my legal workers. I also, by law, have to pay their workers comp, which an employer of illegals does not do.

This, of course, is a perfect argument in favour of legalizing landed immigrants regardless of their status, since if you become a citizen, then boom. Fair wages.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Not just "I love my wife", but "My wife is the greatest wife on Earth!".

If I had a wife, she would be the greatest wife on Earth.

I suppose that's why she is just a fantasy in your head. Just like your "greatest" country, I guess.

Well, I am a romantic.

Although I myself am mainly proud of the values and principals that the country was founded on.

That's the one and only sane basis for patriotism, applied to any country. Being patriotic because of food, etc is what strikes me as absurd. Do other countries not have food?

No. Not really. Not on the same level. Trust me.

Joking aside, I suppose I can ask you the same question: do other countries not have values and principles?

But I suppose I already know your answer for that.

As I've already explained, self-respect does not mean disrespect for others.

 

[RJDiogenes]

So, those who favor strict immigration law enforcement, deportation, etc., how would you deal with this?

Not that I favor strict immigration laws (although I don't favor festival seating, either), but I'll answer this. In many cases, obviously, deportation is not an option; but neither would I favor immunity for people who hurt others by cheating. The kids should be left alone, but the parents should be held responsible.

"Held responsible" how? That's the part I'd like an answer to. You seem to think something specific should be done to hold the parents accountable. Well, what? That's what no one seems to have an answer for, other than "deport them!"

Let's put the question in a context that removes the political baggage of immigration: Imagine a man and woman who, twenty years ago, robbed a bank or embezzled funds or otherwise came into a large sum of money illegally. They used it as a nest egg to buy a house and car. Eventually, they had four kids and used the money to raise them and put them in private school. Then the police finally catch up with them. How would you deal with this?

I don't think the two situations are comparable, but let's assume the statute of limitations hasn't passed. The parents would have to be tried and convicted and their ill-gotten gains would have to be seized. Presumably, that would send the kids to other family members or, barring that, foster care. I assume that's what happens when parents go prison.

But illegal immigration isn't like robbing a bank, and I would consider income from the jobs illegal immigrants get to be ill-gotten gains the way proceeds from a robbery would be. An illegal immigrant works for their money, same as anyone else--they just tend to get less of it.

The point is that in both cases they broke the law and cheated other people, but did it for the good of their family. Do they get punished or do you let them off because the ends justify the means? I don't have the perfect solution to either scenario, but there should be some ramifications to breaking the law.