State of the Stargazer

[MatthiasRussell]

Why did Picard and crew abandon the Stargazer? It seemed to still be functioning pretty well and have atmosphere 9 years later. Did the Ferengi conduct major repairs?


Does it seem feasible that a Constellation class ship was still in service and on the frontier 9 years before TNG?


In a few episodes in season 1, a constitution class model (presumably the Enterprise) is where the Stargazer usually sits, and this is after the Stargazer is first seen there. Why were the models swapped on the set and then changed back?

 

[Mr Silver]

It was probably a real mess until the Ferengi showed up and towed it. They left everything as it was, rather than strip it's valuable parts and they decided to fix it up because they hoped they would get to use it as a bargaining chip with the Federation.

Naturally things didn't turn out quite how the should have and it was used in an attempt to torture and kill Captain Picard.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Do you think if the ship was in such a dire way as to be uninhabitable, the ferengi could have made it livable? That also would have been a huge investment. You also would think such repairs would have been noticed and mentioned.

 

[Vanyel]

From Picard's memories, it seems Stargazer was burning. Perhaps the fires were out of control and they abandoned ship before it's oxygen was burned away. The fires then most likely died once the oxygen was all gone and, a few shuttles weren't going be enough to resupply it.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Perhaps, but if the fires were that out of control, couldn't they have turned off life support, gotten to the lifeboats, blown a hatch, and return when the fires were out. The fact that they abandoned the ship and waited weeks for rescue tells me they thought the ship was about to blow or they thought it did explode. Otherwise, their best chance of surviving and being found would probably have been staying with the ship, even if it was merely uninhabitable.

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

I read somewhere that the stargazer was originally going to be a constitution class ship so they could use the movie model.

 

[Vanyel]

Perhaps, but if the fires were that out of control, couldn't they have turned off life support, gotten to the lifeboats, blown a hatch, and return when the fires were out. The fact that they abandoned the ship and waited weeks for rescue tells me they thought the ship was about to blow or they thought it did explode. Otherwise, their best chance of surviving and being found would probably have been staying with the ship, even if it was merely uninhabitable.

Depends on how bad the fires were and what other damage Stargazer sustained. She may have lost environmental control, and would have had to blown multiple hatches to put out the fire. One thing Trek never really touched on, except in tech manuals was how the ship replenished its supply of breathable air. True it could have a means of cleaning the air, but oxygen would still needed to be added, otherwise it'd be a type of perpetual motion machine. That oxygen would presumably come from tanks, or (on more advanced ships) replicated as needed. Still it would be limited. A fire bad enough to damage system controls would lock the crew out forcing them to abandon ship. Trying to use what little oxygen they had in the shuttles to supply environmental suits to attempt to fix the controls and restore a breathable environment would, in my opinion, be the wrong choice.

As I recall Picard said they were helpless, that could mean navigation and propulsion were out, so Stargazer was a floating hulk, moving in whatever direction it was last headed. There again, abandoning the ship for the operable shuttles was the right idea.

 

[doubleohfive]

I read somewhere that the stargazer was originally going to be a constitution class ship so they could use the movie model.

This is from the TNG Companion. At the last minute (as in, after production was done, it was decided to introduce a different, new "old" ship for Picard's previous command, and "Constellation" was chosen because it sounds just like "Constitution" and was therefore easy to dub over. (Watch Geordi when he says "Constellation-class" -- his voice says it, but his lips don't.

Ah, Post-production.

 

[brian577]

The (non-canon) book The Buried Age covers the Battle of Maxia. I thought it offered some plausible explanations about the battle.

 

[Timo]

OTOH, it failed to explain why Picard's log (the unfalsified part of it) had Picard stating "May she find her way without us". This was in contradiction of the idea that Picard would have attempted scuttling, and that the attempt would have failed without Picard realizing it.

We don't really have reason to think that Starfleet Captains have standing orders to scuttle their ships when forced to abandon them. Scuttling has only taken place, or even been suggested, when it has provided direct tactical advantage (i.e. taken at least a few of the enemy with the scuttled ship) or acted as a means of blackmail. So Picard abandoning a more or less functional starship to her fate might not be that surprising after all.

Perhaps the idea was to have Starfleet recover the derelict later on, and it just so happened that the wreck had been stolen or otherwise lost before the tugs got to it? Perhaps that's what caused Picard to get a court martial - that he didn't leave a guard behind in a spacesuit to ensure a recovery? The "loss" of the ship that he was accused of wasn't the conclusion of the battle, then, it was the theft or misplacement.

However, that wouldn't jibe too well with Picard's last log entry, either. He seemed to fully expect the ship to continue a Starfleet-free existence. Which might not be such a stupid idea after all. Even if gutted with fires and totally out of working order, the ship might still serve as an uncrewed ambassador to the UFP; there would be few risks in letting random aliens examine the already grossly outdated derelict. If there really was sensitive material aboard, Picard could have duly scuttled that, and not wasted time and effort in destroying the rest of the ship.

For all we know, those are the standing orders of Starfleet Captains: to abandon their wrecked ships as monuments to the UFP. Just pull the pin on the beacon that starts transmitting a message of friendship.

Does it seem feasible that a Constellation class ship was still in service and on the frontier 9 years before TNG?

I guess so. That's only seventy years after the construction of the individual ship, apparently, and may also well be those seventy years after the introduction of the class. Kirk's ship was supposed to have decades of history behind it in TOS already, and the ship class then went on to serve for at least three more decades. If we go by the original idea of four decades of pre-TOS history, we have our precedent for the Stargazer there already. Although more modern Trek has moved to assuming just two decades, and the 2240s launch date for Kirk's ship has been used on (barely readable) onscreen material, making it a bit unlikely that the class would really have started its life in the 2220s already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Why did Picard and crew abandon the Stargazer? It seemed to still be functioning pretty well and have atmosphere 9 years later. Did the Ferengi conduct major repairs?

Obviously, since the whole point of Bok's giving the ship to Picard was so that he'd board it and use it to attack the Enterprise. You can't do that if there's no atmosphere now, can you?

Does it seem feasible that a Constellation class ship was still in service and on the frontier 9 years before TNG?

Well, does it seem feasible that Excelsiors, Mirandas, Oberths, Klingon K'T'ingas and Klingon Birds of Prey would be in service in TNG? Because they are.

In a few episodes in season 1, a constitution class model (presumably the Enterprise) is where the Stargazer usually sits, and this is after the Stargazer is first seen there. Why were the models swapped on the set and then changed back?

There was only one episode where the usual yellow Constellation desk model was replaced with the Constitution model, and it was "The Battle." The yellow model was always supposed to represent the Stargazer, but when "The Battle" was being filmed, TPTB didn't know if they'd be able to build an identical filming model in time. So they were going to use the TMP Enterprise model for the Stargazer, hence the swapping of the desk models for this one episode. But Greg Jein built the new model in time for post-production, so we did end up getting the correct ship, although the episode still showed the wrong desk model.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I'm pretty sure a constitution was seen in at least one other episode. I've been rewatching season 1 the last 2 weeks and remember it happening in other episodes. Still, your explanation makes sense.


So Picard attempted to scuttle his ship? That makes sense to me. But did he not know that the scuttling attempt failed? If he didn't blow up the ship or believe it destroyed, it seems like staying in proximity with the derelict presented the best hope of rescue. I still don't understand how he could have believed her destroyed when her space frame was clearly left intact.

 

[Alrik]

I'm pretty sure a constitution was seen in at least one other episode. I've been rewatching season 1 the last 2 weeks and remember it happening in other episodes.

I just checked screne caps from The Neutral Zone and a Constitution shows up there as well. Not in Picards's Ready
Room, but in the room that Ralph, Sonny, and Claire were in.

 

[Dukhat]

So Picard attempted to scuttle his ship? That makes sense to me. But did he not know that the scuttling attempt failed? If he didn't blow up the ship or believe it destroyed, it seems like staying in proximity with the derelict presented the best hope of rescue. I still don't understand how he could have believed her destroyed when her space frame was clearly left intact.

The only thing that makes sense is if Picard set an auto-destruct sequence to go off at a selected time that all the escape pods & shuttles were far enough away that they wouldn't get damaged, but the autodestruct failed and he just assumed it blew up because he was too far away to see it. Either that, or Picard already thought the ship was going to be destroyed without an autodestruct, and abandoned ship without turning back. The episode seems to imply the latter.

I just checked screne caps from The Neutral Zone and a Constitution shows up there as well. Not in Picards's Ready Room, but in the room that Ralph, Sonny, and Claire were in.

That's actually a different model than the one used in "The Battle." If you look closely, you'll see that the nacelles are on backwards.

 

[doubleohfive]

What I love about the one in Picard's ready room is that it was very obviously just the STAR TREK V AMT/ERTL model kit, assembled and spraypainted silver.

 

[Balok's Head]

There was only one episode where the usual yellow Constellation desk model was replaced with the Constitution model, and it was "The Battle." The yellow model was always supposed to represent the Stargazer, but when "The Battle" was being filmed, TPTB didn't know if they'd be able to build an identical filming model in time. So they were going to use the TMP Enterprise model for the Stargazer, hence the swapping of the desk models for this one episode. But Greg Jein built the new model in time for post-production, so we did end up getting the correct ship, although the episode still showed the wrong desk model.

Actually that silver replacement model was in Picard's ready room for a few episodes.
The studio originally wanted Picards old ship to be a Constitution refit class, so they could use the already built up model from the movies. But for whatever reason it was decided against, I think because of some monetary reason, though can't be sure. This lead to the model makers using the design that had been in Picards ready room for the whole season, a larger fully lit studio model was built from the dimensions of the desktop model, and used for filming.

The ready room model, was originally just a set dressing and nothing more, it was never intended to be his old ship.

 

[Timo]

...And probably wasn't, since it bears a completely different registry!

Either the Constellation class ship on Picard's pedestal is some other vessel of that class, then, or then a friend of Picard's gave him a Stargazer model with a deliberately incorrect registry - the door code of Picard's old flame, perhaps? Or his winning score at the Academy dodecathlon?

I still don't understand how he could have believed her destroyed when her space frame was clearly left intact.

Computer-controlled, explosion-based self-destruct seems to go offline rather easily. Probably it would have been too risky to try and blow all the scuttling charges manually, and too inefficient to only blow up a few - compared with choosing some other destruct option, such as setting course for a nearby star or planet, as Christopher's novel suggests.

Since the ship supposedly had extremely little maneuverability left, a suicidal course would probably be a slow one: Picard couldn't stay back and wait for the weeks until presumed impact. And something could easily go wrong: say, a fuel tank blew and kicked the ship off destruct course ever-so-slightly.

However, that still fails to comply with Picard's parting words. Did he mean "May she find her way without us - to destruction"? Perhaps he was indeed expected to destroy his ship, and put a somewhat flippant line in his log about not seeing the process through?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I'll have to go to memory beta and check the novel references to the stargazer.

 

[Dukhat]

There was only one episode where the usual yellow Constellation desk model was replaced with the Constitution model, and it was "The Battle." The yellow model was always supposed to represent the Stargazer, but when "The Battle" was being filmed, TPTB didn't know if they'd be able to build an identical filming model in time. So they were going to use the TMP Enterprise model for the Stargazer, hence the swapping of the desk models for this one episode. But Greg Jein built the new model in time for post-production, so we did end up getting the correct ship, although the episode still showed the wrong desk model.

Actually that silver replacement model was in Picard's ready room for a few episodes.
The studio originally wanted Picards old ship to be a Constitution refit class, so they could use the already built up model from the movies. But for whatever reason it was decided against, I think because of some monetary reason, though can't be sure. This lead to the model makers using the design that had been in Picards ready room for the whole season, a larger fully lit studio model was built from the dimensions of the desktop model, and used for filming.

The ready room model, was originally just a set dressing and nothing more, it was never intended to be his old ship.

I'm amazed that you quoted me, and yet didn't seem to read what I wrote. That yellow desktop model was always supposed to represent the Stargazer. Rick Sternbach even said so. They were going to go with the TMP Enterprise during pre-production of "The Battle" only, but Jein was able to build his model in time. Nobody wanted to use the TMP Ent; they thought they'd be forced to use it because of time constraints. As a matter of fact, nobody wanted to use any recycled movie models or stock footage at all, but the budget always nixed the building of new models. They even had to use several models that were originally built for other productions, like the Visitor freighter and the Night of the Creeps ship!

BTW, which episodes other than "The Battle" was that Connie model shown in Picard's ready room?

...And probably wasn't, since it bears a completely different registry!

Either the Constellation class ship on Picard's pedestal is some other vessel of that class, then, or then a friend of Picard's gave him a Stargazer model with a deliberately incorrect registry - the door code of Picard's old flame, perhaps? Or his winning score at the Academy dodecathlon?

As I said, Rick Sternbach made it clear that that desktop model was always meant to represent the Stargazer, different registry or not. It's like if you flew a certain airplane during WWII, and then bought a corresponding desktop model of said airplane. Obviously the model will not have the same registry as your plane, but it's meant to represent it anyway.

However, that still fails to comply with Picard's parting words. Did he mean "May she find her way without us - to destruction"? Perhaps he was indeed expected to destroy his ship, and put a somewhat flippant line in his log about not seeing the process through?

Hmm. I forgot about this line. It certainly sounds like Picard didn't think the ship was destroyed now, did he? So what happened that was so bad that the crew felt the need to abandon ship even though it wasn't going to be destroyed?

 

[Balok's Head]

I'm amazed that you quoted me, and yet didn't seem to read what I wrote.
BTW, which episodes other than "The Battle" was that Connie model shown in Picard's ready room?

Ok, I did actually read what you wrote, I just happened to disagree with you. Keep in mind it's just a TV show..

BTW, the other episodes the silver constitution model appears in are The Battle, Hide and Q, Too Short a Season and The Big Goodbye.