Why are the Borg obsessed with Humans / Earth?

[MrJ]

That was one of the stupidest retcons in Star Trek.

Why? because Picard didn't know about the Borg? You don't think that starfleet tells a mere captain about some top secret stuff, do you?

Why would it be necessary to keep information like that from Starship captains who might some day meet the Borg? All Starfleet Captains need to know about the Omega particle. Almost every one has knowledge of all of Kirks missions. Why not give Captains whatever info on the Borg they had before they met them. Especially the Captain of the Federation Flagship.

That episode is one of many reasons why I hate Enterprise.

Again, why do you think this wasn't just quietly hushed up?

Why would they cover it up? I could see them keep it from the general public but Starfleet Captains should probably be informed. When Kirk, and later Picard, took command they should have been informed that there might be a species of cyborg zombies out there somewhere.

Not telling Starfleet Captains what Starfleet knew about the Borg would be like sending out a modern day navy ship out on patrol through a minefield and not telling the Captain about the mines.

 

[Gary7]

Don't bother asking that question or, really, even engaging at all when such a vague statement is made. Anwar consistently refers to alleged reactions from nebulous individuals and never provides a concrete identification. He's always rehashing (apparently) old criticisms from his years of defending VOY, regardless of whether or not anyone except him even brings up those criticisms in any given thread.

I had observed him sidestep the question before with a couple of others (one recently being zar), so I figured why not have a go at it myself. And... same thing happened, as you said.

The "fan base" is actually the small group of people he knows and others he has corresponded with on TBBS. This does NOT represent the overall audience. TBBS is a minority. An intelligent one, but still the feelings and preferences expressed here do not represent the entire fan base. I thought maybe on the odd chance there was some official representation of fan opinion from a sanctioned source, but apparently not--all hearsay.

I appreciate some people being ticked off that the Borg weren't the end-all be-all badass species, but it's really quite unrealistic considering the vastness of space and that "Q" hinted about many formidable species that the Federation had yet to encounter. Also... species 8472 wanted to be left alone in fluidic space, despite being more powerful than the Borg, but the Borg decided they wanted to try assimilation and brought a conflict upon themselves. It doesn't take away from that fact that the Borg are still VERY powerful... and had Data not intervened in BoBW, Earth would have been assimilated--a very serious blow to the Federation.

 

[CaptainJack]

Didnt Q originally hint that the Borg werent even the worst thing out there?

 

[Anwar]

Yes, and the VOY writers decided to finally capitalize on it. Unfortunately, the audience had somehow gotten the idea that the Borg WERE the worst thing out there and as such any attempt at showing anyone tougher than them is doomed to failure.

 

[brian577]

[Comment Deleted]

 

[Tiberius]

Why would it be necessary to keep information like that from Starship captains who might some day meet the Borg? All Starfleet Captains need to know about the Omega particle. Almost every one has knowledge of all of Kirks missions. Why not give Captains whatever info on the Borg they had before they met them. Especially the Captain of the Federation Flagship.

But the difference is that Omega could be anywhere. The Federation would have had a fairly good idea that the Borg were way over the other side of the galaxy.

And bear in mind that captains aren't actually that high up in the chain of command.

Why would they cover it up? I could see them keep it from the general public but Starfleet Captains should probably be informed. When Kirk, and later Picard, took command they should have been informed that there might be a species of cyborg zombies out there somewhere.

Again, captains aren't that high up. And bear in mind that the last direct contact that was reported was 200 years before Picard. Are navy captains today routinely told about things that were kept secret two hundred years ago?

Not telling Starfleet Captains what Starfleet knew about the Borg would be like sending out a modern day navy ship out on patrol through a minefield and not telling the Captain about the mines.

Not quite. As I said, the Borg were known to be a long way away. It was highly unlikely that the Federation would have encountered them. Indeed, it needed the actions of Q to make the introduction.

On the other hand, navies routinely are aware of where minefields are, and if they are sending a ship into one of those areas, they will advise the crew of those ships.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

It's like how we know that an asteroid could pop out of nowhere at any moment and nuke us into the stone age, but we don't inform every Navy captain about it, because what they can do to save humanity could best be summed up as "diddly shit".

 

[MrJ]

Again, captains aren't that high up.

You keep saying that Captains "aren't that high up", as if they are Air Force fighter pilots sent out to follow orders and do one specific mission and come back. In Star Trek, Starfleet Captains are out in the unknown exposed to all sorts of dangers, representing the Federation in all sorts of important matters, and often on their own make decisions that can affect the course of Humanity and the Federation. Time after time we are told Captains know extremely important information that could turn the tide of a battle if the enemy got a hold of them. There is no reason why Starfleet would deliberately hold back information on the Borg during the 23rd and 24th centuries.

Admittedly it has been a while since I saw the Enterprise Borg episode. But didn't T'pol trace the message the Borg sent to the Delta Quadrant? And Archer guesstimated that the message would reach them sometime in the 24th century? If so then Starfleet should have been warning their frontline explorers about the possible threat by the time of TNG.

And bear in mind that the last direct contact that was reported was 200 years before Picard. Are navy captains today routinely told about things that were kept secret two hundred years ago?

No, as anything that was secret 200 years ago probably isn't important anymore. I doubt a Navy Captain today would get a top secret briefing on the combat capabilities of a 19th century French Warship. But the Galaxy is a lot bigger than the Earth is and in the galaxy something that was a threat 200 years ago could come back and be an even bigger threat.

Not quite. As I said, the Borg were known to be a long way away. It was highly unlikely that the Federation would have encountered them. Indeed, it needed the actions of Q to make the introduction.

How would it be unlikely? Throughout Enterprise, TOS and TNG the heroes regularly meet other races that had more advanced technology or had faster ships. They found worm holes, alternative forms of faster than light travel and time travel. Aliens once took over the original Enterprise and radically increased its speed. The Traveler once made the Enterprise D travel so fast they flew well past the known universe into a place literally "Where No one Has Gone Before". It wouldn't have been that much of a stretch to think that it could be possible for a race as advanced as the Borg the NX-Aprise encounter to posses technology that could propel them faster than warp 5.

Also, Q wasn't needed to introduce them, the Borg introduced themselves to plenty of people on the outposts along the Romulan Neutral Zone. They just didn't leave any survivors. If it wasn't for Q the next time the Borg showed up again would have been when they assimilated the Earth. But, Q got tired of Picard not listen to his vague warnings about the dangers that await them and showed him what's coming. Q whisking the Enterprise away as the Borg were moving in for the kill in "Q Who" probably made the Borg think that Federation ships had capabilities they didn't, possibly making them try the Locutus thing, which led to the failure of their attack.

 

[Tiberius]

You keep saying that Captains "aren't that high up", as if they are Air Force fighter pilots sent out to follow orders and do one specific mission and come back. In Star Trek, Starfleet Captains are out in the unknown exposed to all sorts of dangers, representing the Federation in all sorts of important matters, and often on their own make decisions that can affect the course of Humanity and the Federation. Time after time we are told Captains know extremely important information that could turn the tide of a battle if the enemy got a hold of them. There is no reason why Starfleet would deliberately hold back information on the Borg during the 23rd and 24th centuries.

And Starfleet is the exploration arm. The big decisions are made by the pencil pushers. And captains and starships are the most likely ones to get captured for information - it happened in Chain of Command. So why would Starfleet give information like that out to how many hudreds of people?

Admittedly it has been a while since I saw the Enterprise Borg episode. But didn't T'pol trace the message the Borg sent to the Delta Quadrant? And Archer guesstimated that the message would reach them sometime in the 24th century? If so then Starfleet should have been warning their frontline explorers about the possible threat by the time of TNG.

Perhaps at the time they didn't realise how dangerous it cpould be. "Well hey, Archer defeated them in an old NX class ship. our excelsiors and ambassadors will have no trouble."

No, as anything that was secret 200 years ago probably isn't important anymore. I doubt a Navy Captain today would get a top secret briefing on the combat capabilities of a 19th century French Warship. But the Galaxy is a lot bigger than the Earth is and in the galaxy something that was a threat 200 years ago could come back and be an even bigger threat.

That's right. He wouldn't be briefed on the combat capabilities of a 19th century Frnech warship at all. So why do you suggest that a 24th century captain would be briefed about information 200 years out of date?

How would it be unlikely? Throughout Enterprise, TOS and TNG the heroes regularly meet other races that had more advanced technology or had faster ships. They found worm holes, alternative forms of faster than light travel and time travel. Aliens once took over the original Enterprise and radically increased its speed. The Traveler once made the Enterprise D travel so fast they flew well past the known universe into a place literally "Where No one Has Gone Before". It wouldn't have been that much of a stretch to think that it could be possible for a race as advanced as the Borg the NX-Aprise encounter to posses technology that could propel them faster than warp 5.

Unlikely enough that if Q hadn't done anything, contact with the Borg couldn't have happened for decades.

Also, Q wasn't needed to introduce them, the Borg introduced themselves to plenty of people on the outposts along the Romulan Neutral Zone. They just didn't leave any survivors. If it wasn't for Q the next time the Borg showed up again would have been when they assimilated the Earth. But, Q got tired of Picard not listen to his vague warnings about the dangers that await them and showed him what's coming. Q whisking the Enterprise away as the Borg were moving in for the kill in "Q Who" probably made the Borg think that Federation ships had capabilities they didn't, possibly making them try the Locutus thing, which led to the failure of their attack.

Could have been a single vessel out on a scout mission. Still unlikely to bump into them. it's going around, assimilates a few outposts, finds nothing much different to what the Borg are already familiar with in the Delta Quad, so why would the Collective waste its time going after outposts in the Alpha quad when it can get the same stuff much closer to home?

And the events of Q Who may have made the Federation seem more interesting to the Borg, but that still doesn't provide a motivation for why the Federation would tell its captains about the Borg before that event. Unless you are suggesting that starfleet knows the future...

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Well, they do have the Guardian of Forever.

Plop a couch in front of that sucker, pop a six-pack, and watch away.

 

[Cyke101]

I don't think the Borg are that obsessed with Earth, or else they would send more than one Borg cube at a time. At most, Earth is just one of many worlds that the Borg have an interest in assimilating, but it's not a top priority (i.e., a serious aggressive threat) and doesn't warrant more than a single Borg ship to test its defenses (which includes the Federation Starfleet) periodically, IMO. Earth likely received initial attention because it was the homeworld of the Federation, but now because it has successfully resisted two attempts at assimilation thus far.

But the Collective is patient. In the end, resistance will be proven futile anyway for Species 5618--even if it's years, decades, or even centuries from now.

Yeah, that was my sense, too. In Voyager we'd hear about occasional races who would be defeated by a swarm of Cubes; whether that's simply because of geographical convenience or because those planets are a higher priority on the assimilation list, in any case Earth's Borg conflicts seem rather quaint.

^^^So how did that turn out?

Read the books.

The more I read about them, the more I'm curious. The Destiny line is on my to-do list!

 

[Gary7]

The writers of BoBW had basically two main choices on Borg invasion: one vessel or an armada. They chose one vessel, and let it be so powerful as to stand up to everything the Federation could throw at it on short notice. They could have sent a small armada of 3-5 ships. But then, if the Borg won, the series would be over. We all know that. They wanted the Borg to appear much more formidable, where one vessel would be more than enough to fight against. I think of it like "Alien" and the sequel "Aliens". In the first, there's just one alien that trounces almost the entire crew. Very bad@ss.

The way I look at it, the Borg sent in a large assimilation cube into the Alpha quadrant thinking that it was all they needed for the mission. And they would have been right if it hadn't been for Data. The thing is, the Enterprise could have been dispensed with easily by the Borg cube after Picard was abducted and converted to Locutus. The Borg chose not to finish them off. Why? Maybe Locutus had a subtle influence on a subconscious level (it was Picard's former ship, he wouldn't want to see it destroyed).

Honestly, I would have preferred that Wolf359 have a much smaller fleet of destroyed ships. That Starfleet was spread out too thin to bring in enough ships in time for the engagement. It also would have been great to see a Klingon cruiser in the debris field, one having been nearby and helped with the engagement. I try to chalk it up to insufficient communication... that techniques in combating the Borg weren't thoroughly disseminated so that they could be employed more effectively. It made the ships more vulnerable and easily dispensed with.

But again, why one cube? Because the Borg didn't see it necessary to devote more resources. Also, they'd already "assimilated" enough technological knowledge. Given how far away the Federation is from the Delta quadrant, it wasn't as high a priority to make a full scale invasion. As C.E. Evans said, the Borg are patient. Once they finished saturating the Delta quadrant, they'd make a more concerted effort to invade the Alpha quadrant.

One other thing... the Borg transwarp conduits may have been a more recent fabrication. They may not necessarily have been around during the TNG adventures. Thus, getting around between quadrants would take a lot longer.

 

[Gary7]

If the writers really wanted to do it right, the Borg would be a little more subtle in their invasion strategy. They would invade a remote planet and rather than destroy all life on it, they'd assimilate it and turn it into a Borg cube factory. They'd generate a few more cubes and then go assimilate the next world, generating a few more cubes. Eventually, you have a large cluster of cubes to contend with. They could easily overwhelm any random vessel encountered, and present a very formidable challenge to any organized attack by another species.

The way the Borg are represented in Star Trek, they're very concentrated. But in Voyager, we learn of the transwarp conduits which then become a formidable strategy. You can keep your resources very concentrated and easier to manage, deployed in short order across vast distances using the conduits.

 

[Anwar]

Look, if they wanted to use the Borg right this would have worked:

1) There is no single great Collective, every single Borg vessel (or group of vessels) are their own Collective unto themselves. The original "pure" Borg species that made itself into a cybernetic hive mind retain the desire to assimilate technology but usually lay off assimilating people. The "Pure" Borg are based out of the Unicomplex back in the Delta Quadrant.

Other Borg clusters assimilated too many individuals that their Hive Minds got diluted with too many differing ideas and personalities so they aren't like the Pure Borg anymore. Some became stupidly aggressive and don't do anything but destroy and assimilate, and don't have many ships (often just one Cube). Others assimilated too many pacifistic individuals and became benign. Other still want to assimilate and destroy but don't have any Cubes, just the weaker Probe and Spheres.

Add some variety and explore just how assimilation actually works against the Borg, and you have a worthy recurring alien species.

 

[MrJ]

You keep saying that Captains "aren't that high up", as if they are Air Force fighter pilots sent out to follow orders and do one specific mission and come back. In Star Trek, Starfleet Captains are out in the unknown exposed to all sorts of dangers, representing the Federation in all sorts of important matters, and often on their own make decisions that can affect the course of Humanity and the Federation. Time after time we are told Captains know extremely important information that could turn the tide of a battle if the enemy got a hold of them. There is no reason why Starfleet would deliberately hold back information on the Borg during the 23rd and 24th centuries.

And Starfleet is the exploration arm. The big decisions are made by the pencil pushers. And captains and starships are the most likely ones to get captured for information - it happened in Chain of Command. So why would Starfleet give information like that out to how many hudreds of people?

Starfleet is a Military organization whose many duties involve not just exploration, but also the defence of the Federation. Yeah the big decisions would be made by the pencil pushers, but as I already said:

In Star Trek, Starfleet Captains are out in the unknown exposed to all sorts of dangers, representing the Federation in all sorts of important matters, and often on their own make decisions that can affect the course of Humanity and the Federation.

that also means that they could meet new enemies and it is completely moronic to hide information from them about the Borg, no matter how remote a chance of them meeting them.

And captains and starships are the most likely ones to get captured for information - it happened in Chain of Command. So why would Starfleet give information like that out to how many hudreds of people?

I'm not saying what Starfleet should do when it comes to who knows what, I'm saying what they did do. Every Starship in Starfleet holds the prefix codes to all the other ships in Starfleet to disable them. Captains know command codes to their ships and often the command codes to the Federations defences. When Nero was interrogating Pike he wasn't interested in anything that happened a hundred years ago to a ship named Enterprise that we never heard about in the 23rd or 24th centuries. Why the fuck would Starfleet consider the 22nd century Borg incident to be a more valuable a secret than Earths defence codes? They wouldn't.

Admittedly it has been a while since I saw the Enterprise Borg episode. But didn't T'pol trace the message the Borg sent to the Delta Quadrant? And Archer guesstimated that the message would reach them sometime in the 24th century? If so then Starfleet should have been warning their frontline explorers about the possible threat by the time of TNG.

Perhaps at the time they didn't realise how dangerous it cpould be. "Well hey, Archer defeated them in an old NX class ship. our excelsiors and ambassadors will have no trouble."

Archer beat a crappy 22nd century Earth transport that the Borg quickly assimilated and upgraded to make it more than a match to the NX-01 Enterprise. They never saw what a totally Borg ship from that era is capable of. They must have known that if they can turn a civilian transport into such a warship in a few days, their actual warships must have been formidable, much more than anything Starfleet had. And 200 years later they could only have gotten better.

That's right. He wouldn't be briefed on the combat capabilities of a 19th century Frnech warship at all. So why do you suggest that a 24th century captain would be briefed about information 200 years out of date?

Because, and I hate to have to repeat my self again, but I said this:

But the Galaxy is a lot bigger than the Earth is and in the galaxy something that was a threat 200 years ago could come back and be an even bigger threat.

It's hard to make a parallel between the Navy today to Starfleet in the 24th century. After the Earth/Romulan War no one had seen or heard of the Romulans for about 100 years, until the "Balance of Terror". Sometime after the events of "The Undiscovered Country" the Romulans became extremely isolationist and no Federation ship saw them again for about 70 years (at least none that survived the encounter). Until the "Neutral Zone" when the Romulans came back, partially because of the Borg attack on the outposts. There is no modern day equivalent to this. It would be like, to keep on the example of France (this time comparing them to the Romulans), no one seeing or hearing anything about France after 1811 until 1911. The last time anyone saw a French Warship in 1811 they were made of wood and powered by sail, armed with smooth bore black powder cannons. Then when they come back in 1911 their ships are made of metal, powered by steam and armed with mechanically swivelling top mounted heavy cannons. Then they disappear again only to comeback in the 21st century with Diesel and Nuclear powered Warships, with thick armoured hulls and state of the art guided weapons and nuclear missiles.
That's pretty ridiculous to happen on Earth but possible to happen in space because of the vastness and added difficulties of gathering intelligence.
The only thing that could compare to the Borg on Earth's oceans would be a Kraken, Godzilla, or the Cloverfield monster, something that appears from time to time and destroys costal cities.

How would it be unlikely? Throughout Enterprise, TOS and TNG the heroes regularly meet other races that had more advanced technology or had faster ships. They found worm holes, alternative forms of faster than light travel and time travel. Aliens once took over the original Enterprise and radically increased its speed. The Traveler once made the Enterprise D travel so fast they flew well past the known universe into a place literally "Where No one Has Gone Before". It wouldn't have been that much of a stretch to think that it could be possible for a race as advanced as the Borg the NX-Aprise encounter to posses technology that could propel them faster than warp 5.

Unlikely enough that if Q hadn't done anything, contact with the Borg couldn't have happened for decades.

Except, the Borg already made contact with the Federation before "Q Who" in "The Neutral Zone". And why would contact with the Borg take decades without Q? The Borg modified a 22nd century Earth transport that could barely go warp 2 and in a few days could go warp 5. It is pretty easy to guess that the Borg probably had very advanced ships that could go faster than anything the Federation had. Hell, the Federation was experimenting with Transwarp Drive in the 23rd century. Shouldn't Starfleet have thought that it would be more than likely that the Borg already had Transwarp at that time?

Also, Q wasn't needed to introduce them, the Borg introduced themselves to plenty of people on the outposts along the Romulan Neutral Zone. They just didn't leave any survivors. If it wasn't for Q the next time the Borg showed up again would have been when they assimilated the Earth. But, Q got tired of Picard not listen to his vague warnings about the dangers that await them and showed him what's coming. Q whisking the Enterprise away as the Borg were moving in for the kill in "Q Who" probably made the Borg think that Federation ships had capabilities they didn't, possibly making them try the Locutus thing, which led to the failure of their attack.

Could have been a single vessel out on a scout mission. Still unlikely to bump into them. it's going around, assimilates a few outposts, finds nothing much different to what the Borg are already familiar with in the Delta Quad, so why would the Collective waste its time going after outposts in the Alpha quad when it can get the same stuff much closer to home?

And the events of Q Who may have made the Federation seem more interesting to the Borg, but that still doesn't provide a motivation for why the Federation would tell its captains about the Borg before that event. Unless you are suggesting that starfleet knows the future...

Why would the Collective waste its time going after outposts in the Alpha quadrant when it can get the same stuff much closer to home? I don't know, I'm not trying to explain the Borg justification for anything. The "Destiny" Trilogy does a pretty good job of explaining the Borgs interest in Humans. They probably went after the Neutral Zone outposts because they might have thought that they would give a good idea of the Federation and Romulan technologies and defences.

I have been saying this whole time that Starfleet Captains should have been told about the Borg ever since Archer met them. Throughout the 23rd and 24th centuries it should have been just general info that a Captain is given, like how a Klingon disrupter works, or a Romulan plasma torpedo or what is the capital of the Tzenkethi home world. Just, info that could be useful someday, but probably is just useless. Something that the Captain is told once in a briefing and it either stays in the back of his or her mind or they forget it after being told.

But once the Enterprise met the Borg at system J-25 and confirmed that the Borg were responsible for the destruction of the Neutral Zone outposts. Starfleet should have been like: "Ok, we have known about this for 200 years now, and we have been expecting a possible attack from them. It's a good thing we have been preparing to fight them for the last 200 years. Working on defeating their personal shields and such."

But obviously that didn't happen because, as I said before the Enterprise Borg episode was a retcon and a stupid one at that.


It just occurred to me that your argument is rather contradictory. You say that the Borg weren't important enough to tell Starfleet Captains about before "Q Who". But information about the Borg was so super ultra top secret that Starfleet considered the intel on them to be more important than the defence codes to Earth. And so highly classified that there wasn't a single piece of information about the Borg in the Enterprise's massive computer database before "Q who". So which is it? It can't be both. It can't be too trivial to tell Captains about at the same time it's too important to let Captains know because the knowledge might fall into enemy hands.

 

[Sci]

I think it's far more likely that Starfleet, being as huge an organization as it is, probably runs into a LOT of rumors about uber-powerful aliens with undefeatable starships. Those rumors are probably spread by the cultures Starfleet comes into contact with at the edge of explored space, and probably involve a lot of powers that are based near those cultures but still far enough away that Starfleet has yet to encounter them -- "just over the horizon." And probably most of the time, when Starfleet ends up encountering them, those supposedly uber-powerful aliens turn out to be more or less comparable to the Federation.

Space is big, and Starfleet takes in a lot of information. I can easily see how that sort of info would be lost in the shuffle eventually, how space legends can be ignored.

 

[Tiberius]

Starfleet is a Military organization whose many duties involve not just exploration, but also the defence of the Federation. Yeah the big decisions would be made by the pencil pushers, but as I already said: that also means that they could meet new enemies and it is completely moronic to hide information from them about the Borg, no matter how remote a chance of them meeting them.

As Sci said, the Federation probably gets hundreds of such rumours. Is it going to brief each captain about every single one of them?

Why the fuck would Starfleet consider the 22nd century Borg incident to be a more valuable a secret than Earths defence codes? They wouldn't.

So if the Federation doesn't consider the Borg important, why would the brief each captain about them?

Archer beat a crappy 22nd century Earth transport that the Borg quickly assimilated and upgraded to make it more than a match to the NX-01 Enterprise. They never saw what a totally Borg ship from that era is capable of. They must have known that if they can turn a civilian transport into such a warship in a few days, their actual warships must have been formidable, much more than anything Starfleet had. And 200 years later they could only have gotten better.

If they never saw what the Borg were capable of, how can you say this?

Because, and I hate to have to repeat my self again, but I said this: It's hard to make a parallel between the Navy today to Starfleet in the 24th century.

You're the one who brought up the comparrison.

The only thing that could compare to the Borg on Earth's oceans would be a Kraken, Godzilla, or the Cloverfield monster, something that appears from time to time and destroys costal cities.

Which is why every navy captain is briefed about the Bermuda Triangle, perhaps?

Except, the Borg already made contact with the Federation before "Q Who" in "The Neutral Zone".

And given that all indications are that the vessel responsible for that then left the area, it seems like it was on a simple scouting mission, not an attack on the Federation.

And why would contact with the Borg take decades without Q? The Borg modified a 22nd century Earth transport that could barely go warp 2 and in a few days could go warp 5. It is pretty easy to guess that the Borg probably had very advanced ships that could go faster than anything the Federation had. Hell, the Federation was experimenting with Transwarp Drive in the 23rd century. Shouldn't Starfleet have thought that it would be more than likely that the Borg already had Transwarp at that time?

You seem to be contradicting yourself. Earlier you were saying that the Federation would have had very little information about the Borg. Now you are saying that the Federation should have been aware of the Borg's technical capabilities based solely on a single brief encounter. You really think Starfleet is into such extreme speculation?

Why would the Collective waste its time going after outposts in the Alpha quadrant when it can get the same stuff much closer to home? I don't know, I'm not trying to explain the Borg justification for anything.

Again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Earlier you were claiming that the federation would have had contact with the Borg very soon, even if not for the actions of Q, and now you are saying that there was no reason for the Borg to be there. So it seems likely (since we know the Borg WERE there) that the vessel from TNZ was just a simple scouting mission. Which is exactly what I have been saying.

I have been saying this whole time that Starfleet Captains should have been told about the Borg ever since Archer met them. Throughout the 23rd and 24th centuries it should have been just general info that a Captain is given, like how a Klingon disrupter works, or a Romulan plasma torpedo or what is the capital of the Tzenkethi home world. Just, info that could be useful someday, but probably is just useless. Something that the Captain is told once in a briefing and it either stays in the back of his or her mind or they forget it after being told.

Except that knowledge of how a disrupter works, or Romulan plasma torpedos, or the capital of Tzenketh is stuff that captains would routinely be using. Knowledge of something that happened 200 years ago and has had only rumours of things that happened in far distant reaches of the galaxy since is not.

But once the Enterprise met the Borg at system J-25 and confirmed that the Borg were responsible for the destruction of the Neutral Zone outposts. Starfleet should have been like: "Ok, we have known about this for 200 years now, and we have been expecting a possible attack from them. It's a good thing we have been preparing to fight them for the last 200 years. Working on defeating their personal shields and such."

But obviously that didn't happen because, as I said before the Enterprise Borg episode was a retcon and a stupid one at that.

Preparing how? How much information do you think that the NX 01 crew was able to get?

It just occurred to me that your argument is rather contradictory. You say that the Borg weren't important enough to tell Starfleet Captains about before "Q Who". But information about the Borg was so super ultra top secret that Starfleet considered the intel on them to be more important than the defence codes to Earth. And so highly classified that there wasn't a single piece of information about the Borg in the Enterprise's massive computer database before "Q who". So which is it? It can't be both. It can't be too trivial to tell Captains about at the same time it's too important to let Captains know because the knowledge might fall into enemy hands.

After Archer's encounter, it would have been classified top secret. And after two centuries with nothing but rumour about the Borg, probably no one in Starfleet thought they were a serious threat. There's no evidence to say that this would have resulted in Starfleet deciding to make that information not top secret anymore though. But even if they had, do you really think picard was going to go investigating it? How often do you see people today rushing off to investigate things that were classified top secret when Australia was being settled as a convict colony? The Hansen's research probably would have been considered top secret, because Starfleet knew enough that going out to investigate them was a bad idea, but bear in mind that this was going out to find the Borg, which is very different to the Borg coming here.

BTW, did I ever say anything about the defense codes to Earth?

 

[Gary7]

Seriously, I don't know how you guys manage to completely read through those enormous posts interleaved with quotes and comments.

 

[Tiberius]

Better that than a post where you have no idea what it is in response to.

 

[Gary7]

^ too many points and too many responses make for a lot of visual noise... too many issues debated simultaneously for a reasonable exchange. This forum interface isn't very productive for it, so points get overlooked easily, or conveniently when someone doesn't have a good reply in mind and chooses to focus on easier points to argue from their perspective.