Nope the timeline wiped the Next Gen from existence
Is Data's head still under San Francisco?
- Thread starter USS Triumphant
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That's how I see it too. But only from the Prime Universe (or the one everything has been set in until ST09). Since the NuTrek verse has no connections (apart from Nero, Spock and the Narada crew contaminating it) to the Prime verse, it cannot rewrite the history of it.
It would be interesting to see what happens in the 24th century in the NuTrek verse. If there is no Data, then there is nobody to break the time loops in "Cause And Effect" or hack into the Borg hive mind. Granted, perhaps in the NuTrek verse none of these problems are encountered by the Ent-D crew. In fact if there is none of that Khan nonsense, there will be no need for a Ent-A and the lineage of the ship could be broken! The crew under Captain Picard could be an entirely different crew, captained by an entirely different captain on a ship called the Yorktown or something like that.
Lets take a situation where Data's presence is vital to preventing everything going to shit. Take the Borg invasion for example. That all came about because Picard and co journeyed to Farpoint Station, although its inevitable that Q was probably going to spring on Picard no matter where he went. Anyway, Q decides to fling the Ent-D into a remote system where it encounters a Borg cube and the first official contact between the Federation and the Borg occurs. The Borg are made aware of the Enterprise's technological distinctiveness and aim to assimilate it. When the ship escapes the Borg analyse what happened and become intrigued with the Alpha Quadrant and Earth to be more precise. They assimilate Jean-Luc Picard, thus gaining all his knowledge about defences, tactics and strategic locations and they then proceed to wipe out an entire fleet at Wolf 359. In order to stop the cube, Data and Worf retrieve Picard and Data uses Picard's (or Locutus') connection to the hive mind to hack into the Borg Cube's operations and shut it down, thus blowing it to pieces and stopping the threat.
Now lets assume Data doesn't actually exist and all these events play out normally prior to the Borg attempting the invasion. Lets assume that Prime Spock, first of all realises that without Data's existence, the Borg stand a really good chance of assimilating the entire Alpha Quadrant of this Nu-Verse he's found himself in. Suppose that Spock uses his foreknowledge to prevent the Borg from ever bothering to attack, he's done enough already (revealing himself to his counterpart, giving Scotty technology years before he is meant to develop it) and proven that anything that he does to alter the events of this universe, will fail because events in history have played out differently.
Therefore I hypothesise that in NuTrek the Borg are a minimum (but formidable) force stuck in the Delta Quadrant with no idea about the existence of Earth and even if they are aware of it, they either have no interest or lack the resources to justify any attempts at conquering it. For all we know, the Borg in NuTrek could have completely different goals that revolve around the accumulation of technology and they only assimilate individuals when its necessary to raise or replace their population.
There may well be a Data head under San Francisco. The one thing we can say for certain is that it won't be THE Data head that we saw in the Prime Universe because Nero has jumped tracks and the same head can't exist in two different timelines any more than the same Worf could in Parallels.
I think it's misleading to say that this universe has branched FROM the Prime Universe itself. It has branched from a parallel universe that, but for Nero, would have been identical (from writer intent) to the Prime Universe. So, yes, the characters' lives have been changed by Nero's presence but they haven't 'really' been changed since time happens everywhen all at once so for these particular versions, Nero was always going to turn up there. The writers have tried to simplify the way the outcome is presented to avoid technobabble and/or to avoid confusing the casual moviegoer with no interest in 'proper' many worlds theory.
I think it's more likely that the Borg will turn up early in this universe if I'm being cynical. Still, people shouldn't feel bad if they don't understand the way it really works - it just means they are one of the lesser people.
Nero hasn't "jumped tracks". He went BACK IN TIME (as ALL the film's dialogue explicitly says) and altered history creating an alternate timeline. It's no different to Admiral Janeway going back and changing history in "Endgame". No track jumping, just going back and making changes.
Aww bless you. But people who cite time travel episodes from Voyager as evidence to support them are sort of self-defeating...
Aww bless you. But people who cite time travel episodes from Voyager as evidence to support them are sort of self-defeating...
Funny, the concept of Spock coming through 25 years after Nero is directly lifted from "Future's End"
How about "Yesterday's Enterprise" then, two timelines diverging at Narendra III?
Here's a random map of paths through the multiverse:
STXI explicitly and clearly stated the timelines diverge (that's "diverge" not "bunny hop") in 2233 when Narada appears and attacks the USS Kelvin.
Events prior are shared and unaffected.
That's not my understanding of the real many worlds theory and parallel timelines 'diverge' when pivotal events occur too. There is a legal rule of contractual construction that words may not mean what they appear to mean. You must examine what they would mean to an objective observer with full knowledge of the background. As a lawyer I can't but help to view Trek science in the light that it is often phrased a certain way to simplify the scientific concepts for an audience that may have minimal scientific knowledge. Same holds true for NuTrek's versions of black holes and supernovas I suppose.
Trek has form on this sort of thing - that's part of the fun! Data Prime's head isn't there.
Or if you like Schrodinger's theories, it is AND isn't there at the same time.
I'm kidding. It isn't there.
Trek has form on this sort of thing - that's part of the fun! Data Prime's head isn't there.
Or if you like Schrodinger's theories, it is AND isn't there at the same time.
I'm kidding. It isn't there.
I see Trek as fantasy dressed up in loose sci-fi colours. Where supernovae sometimes explode at FTL speeds (STXI) and are sometimes portals to bizarro reverse universes ("The Counter-Clock Incident"), and where black holes are sometimes deadly ("Hunters", STXI), sometimes nonsensical ("Parallax") and sometimes magical time/space portals ("Tomorrow is Yesterday", TMP, STXI)
I'm talking about the Trek multiverse. A theory that fits most of Trek's time travel and alternate-reality stories into a big multidimensional whole, taking into account all the effects travellers from various futures have had the TV/film timeline. Not real-life Many Worlds Theory. Because Star Trek doesn't fit in real life. No use trying to force it, IMO.
I'm talking about the Trek multiverse. A theory that fits most of Trek's time travel and alternate-reality stories into a big multidimensional whole, taking into account all the effects travellers from various futures have had the TV/film timeline. Not real-life Many Worlds Theory. Because Star Trek doesn't fit in real life. No use trying to force it, IMO.
All very true. But the Trek universe has also never applied one consistent theory of time travel. That brings us back to good old Schrodinger after all I suppose. Until it actually features on screen, Data's head is and isn't under San Francisco. Science won in the end! 
My thinking about this whole thing is as follows...
The black hole created by the red matter caused Nero and Spock to be taken to a different universe. Not only this but it also propelled them through the time of this alternate universe, one ended up in 2233 of this universe (Nero) the other ended up in 2233 and the other (Spock) entered 20 years or so later.
So what I'm saying is not only is this a different universe (where none of Nero or Spock's changes have done anything to affect the timeline) but both Nero and Spock travelled through space and time itself. The past of a different universe to the Prime.
The black hole created by the red matter caused Nero and Spock to be taken to a different universe. Not only this but it also propelled them through the time of this alternate universe, one ended up in 2233 of this universe (Nero) the other ended up in 2233 and the other (Spock) entered 20 years or so later.
So what I'm saying is not only is this a different universe (where none of Nero or Spock's changes have done anything to affect the timeline) but both Nero and Spock travelled through space and time itself. The past of a different universe to the Prime.
Pauln6 said:
It is indeed the head of Data Prime. Before Nero and Spock went into the black hole, Data Prime's head was there in the past of their timeline. Nero goes into the past of the Prime universe, at a point when the Data Prime head was there, and in so doing creates the Abramsverse timeline. The changes which differentiate the Abramsverse timeline are due to the appearance of Nero ( and Spock ), and all consequences of that. There are no other changes in that the past of the Abramsverse is identical to that of the Prime before 2233. There is no reason for the disappearance of the Data Prime head.
Pauln6 said:
It is not misleading to say that this universe branches from the Prime, because that was the writer intent.
We are back to the lawyer thing again. The writers have limited scientific knowledge, they were promoting a movie and not presenting a science lecture, and they expressly stated that they wanted to keep technobabble to a minimum to make the movie accessible to a casual audience.
The characters themselves were not aware that time travel was possible until 2266 and were not aware of alternate universes until Mirror Mirror, and were not aware of the extent of parallel universes until Parallels so anything they say on screen is opinion based on limited information.
The strongest evidence in your favour is Spock's comment about the universe trying to repair itself. That was dreadful writing about dreadful science to paper over a dreadful plot contrivance. It isn't consistent with any of the scientific theories, including branching, and it was his opinion formulated in a chilly cave based on no empirical data.
Even if you want to hang your hat on that, it still doesn't prove that writer intent is that Data Prime's head is under San Francisco. Writer intent to this movie may not be the same as writer intent in future stories as Trek's inconsistent approach to time travel in the past demonstrates. Schrodinger is as close as you can get. There may or may not be Data's head and it may or may not be Data Prime, NuData, or a different alternate Data. Writer intent for that story can only be determined once it is written.
But it's not dreadful writing. It's dreadful real life science, but as I said earlier, Trek's a fantasy world, where things like "the timeline repairing itself" can happen (Spock used similar nonsense to assure Kirk that they'd be drawn to McCoy in time to save history in "City on the Edge of Forever"). Trek's world crumbles to dust under real-word analysis long before you get to many-world theory. IMO, forgiving American speaking human aliens with bumpy heads but saying the time travel's wrong for not being realistic enough is ridiculous.
Trek's a fantasy world. When the people in charge of that fantasy world say it works in a certain way, that's the way it works.
Trek's a fantasy world. When the people in charge of that fantasy world say it works in a certain way, that's the way it works.
True up to a point (although the influence of the Guardian or the fact that the future visitors possessed different quantum signatures can't be discounted as plausible explanations there). But it doesn't change the fact that until they write the story featuring Data's head (or not) we don't know what their intent will be on that particular issue. The characters' views on screen are not necessarily 100% accurate.
It really is dreadful writing though. Kirk ended up on a random planet in a random cave because the universe wanted it that way... Better writing could have come up with a much better way to link the characters. Now if it was Q interfering, I'd roll my eyes and let it slide as lame but at least consistent. Or if NuSpock had beamed Kirk to the outpost brig and Spock Prime was already there it would at least make mores sense.
Year of Hell is another one. Writer intent at the time Kes' time travelling story was written was to have her experience impact on the Year of Hell story somehow. I don't know what writer intent was when they came to feature the Krenim but the only logical explanation I can see at the end of the episodes is that we have jumped into a divergant universe where the characters different actions lead to different results. This isn't very satisfactory unless the universe we start in is the divergent universe where information wasn't provided by Kes and/or didn't affect Janeway's behaviour. In final scene, Janeway should have said, Kes warned us about these people, let's go round... there is no attempt to explain why she changed her mind, which doesn't seem to be consistent with the TNG episode Cause and Effect with the time loop.
I can't remember the plot specifics on how the wibbly wobbly timey wimeyness meant the TNG crew possessed subconscious memories of events that had not happened yet (this seems to contradict the Prophets view that time happens everywhen all at once) but if the time warp cut across several quantum realities they might have been experiencing the experiences of less lucky quantum versions of themselves echoing down the quantum spectrum from alternate universes above them in the spectrum. Trek has never been overly concerned about paradoxes.
It really is dreadful writing though. Kirk ended up on a random planet in a random cave because the universe wanted it that way... Better writing could have come up with a much better way to link the characters. Now if it was Q interfering, I'd roll my eyes and let it slide as lame but at least consistent. Or if NuSpock had beamed Kirk to the outpost brig and Spock Prime was already there it would at least make mores sense.
Year of Hell is another one. Writer intent at the time Kes' time travelling story was written was to have her experience impact on the Year of Hell story somehow. I don't know what writer intent was when they came to feature the Krenim but the only logical explanation I can see at the end of the episodes is that we have jumped into a divergant universe where the characters different actions lead to different results. This isn't very satisfactory unless the universe we start in is the divergent universe where information wasn't provided by Kes and/or didn't affect Janeway's behaviour. In final scene, Janeway should have said, Kes warned us about these people, let's go round... there is no attempt to explain why she changed her mind, which doesn't seem to be consistent with the TNG episode Cause and Effect with the time loop.
I can't remember the plot specifics on how the wibbly wobbly timey wimeyness meant the TNG crew possessed subconscious memories of events that had not happened yet (this seems to contradict the Prophets view that time happens everywhen all at once) but if the time warp cut across several quantum realities they might have been experiencing the experiences of less lucky quantum versions of themselves echoing down the quantum spectrum from alternate universes above them in the spectrum. Trek has never been overly concerned about paradoxes.
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Think about the preposterous circumstances that must have repeatedly come about to keep the mirror universe versions of the TOS, DS9 and ENT crews more or less together despite the massive differences in that history. An imperial flag planted on the moon. Zefram Cochrane shoots the first Vulcan to set foot on Earth. The USS Defiant appears in 2154 and is used to install Hoshi as empress. Yet in the 23rd century everyone's in the opposites of their prime-universe roles on Kirk's Enterprise. Massive changes are made then too and even when the empire falls and humans are enslaved by a Klingon/Cardassian alliance, the DS9 mirrors are almost all still in the same places as their prime counterparts.
Kes' role in scanning the Krenim torpedo being taken by Seven further supports fantastical "currents of time"
It all makes Kirk bumping into Old Spock bumping into Scotty all in walking distance of each other on an icy planet seem mundane.
Kes' role in scanning the Krenim torpedo being taken by Seven further supports fantastical "currents of time"
It all makes Kirk bumping into Old Spock bumping into Scotty all in walking distance of each other on an icy planet seem mundane.
Lol - touche!
Although in a near infinite number of possible timelines, one of them must have the set of circumstances we see so it still fits with many worlds I suppose.
Kes' situation was interesting because it was her mind that was switching through time rather than her body and it is entirely plausible that what we saw happening was something akin to Worf switching in Parallels but through time as well as quantum realities.
The reason I prefer Many Worlds is that it can explain every version of time travel we've ever seen if you treat what is said on screen as the characters' general views rather than hard science and just interpret what you see as jumping tracks. If we accept what you see on screen at face value, it gives us several different versions of time travel including paradoxes most of which don't make sense with the Prophets' interpretation of time.
Anyone who had anything to do with the movie.
The timeline split when Nero appeared, so Data's head would be there in the same way that Marty was in 1955 when future Marty went back from an alternate 1985.
I still don't believe that they have confirmed that Data Prime's head would still exist. Back to the Future is a terrible example as Marty's own actions almost caused him to cease to exist. On that version of Time Travel, Data Prime's head would have vanished or been replaced by NuData's head.
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