In light of the decision that left the Kirby estate without any rights to the characters he helped co-create. What to our board members think about the decision?
Would Stan Still be the Man without Jack (King) Kirby?
- Thread starter NextGen123
- Start date
would stan still be the man without King Kirby? YES.
would Marvel be the same without King Kirby? NO.
Stan's status as THE MAN is not dependent on King Kirby's presence, see Lee/Ditko Spider-Man for one example. Marvel without Kirby, however would not be the same since Kirby was responsible for creating so many characters' looks or co-creating the characters themselves. or even creating characters. obviously, without Kirby's place at Marvel stuff he co-created would've been done by someone else and may not have been as good, but we'll never know.
would Marvel be the same without King Kirby? NO.
Stan's status as THE MAN is not dependent on King Kirby's presence, see Lee/Ditko Spider-Man for one example. Marvel without Kirby, however would not be the same since Kirby was responsible for creating so many characters' looks or co-creating the characters themselves. or even creating characters. obviously, without Kirby's place at Marvel stuff he co-created would've been done by someone else and may not have been as good, but we'll never know.
Yes, his ideas weren't dependent on Kirby. Did he help, no question, no argument but Stan Lee would've just had another visionary flesh out the art.
^^^
I know, so I didn't vote.
I know, so I didn't vote.
Lee was at his best with Kirby. Kirby was at his best with Lee. Both had successes without the other (Lee with Ditko, Everett and Buscema, Kirby with Simon) but never to the heights they had when they collaborated.
As for Kirby signing away his rights, let's not forget that he was a middle aged man at the time, with a long history of performing work for hire. Unlike Siegel and Shuster (two kids barely out of high school when they created Superman) Kirby had been both a freelancer and an executive in the industry by the time he worked at "the House of Ideas." While he certainly deserved a bigger byline during his lifetime, it is disingenous, at best, for his family to now claim he didn't know what his contracts said.
As for Kirby signing away his rights, let's not forget that he was a middle aged man at the time, with a long history of performing work for hire. Unlike Siegel and Shuster (two kids barely out of high school when they created Superman) Kirby had been both a freelancer and an executive in the industry by the time he worked at "the House of Ideas." While he certainly deserved a bigger byline during his lifetime, it is disingenous, at best, for his family to now claim he didn't know what his contracts said.
Checkmate
Commodore
I honestly don't get the worship.
Sure, they created what would one day become great characters, but all that early stuff was utter crap. It wasn't until better writers came along and put some real life and interest into them that they became the legends they are now.
What's more, his real life personality is obnoxious and off-putting. The whole "Generalissimo" is just ridiculously stupid.
It's like the worship Gygax got for creating D&D. All of the stuff he wrote was banal and flat-out dumb (especially game mechanics wise), and it wasn't until others came along and improved upon it that they became much more interesting and (at least in other RPGs) sensible.
<shrugs>
Sure, they created what would one day become great characters, but all that early stuff was utter crap. It wasn't until better writers came along and put some real life and interest into them that they became the legends they are now.
What's more, his real life personality is obnoxious and off-putting. The whole "Generalissimo" is just ridiculously stupid.
It's like the worship Gygax got for creating D&D. All of the stuff he wrote was banal and flat-out dumb (especially game mechanics wise), and it wasn't until others came along and improved upon it that they became much more interesting and (at least in other RPGs) sensible.
<shrugs>
True, comics from that era are simple and juvenile. The truly great stories would be not be written until subsequent decades. However, it's important to note that the people who went on to write those great stories are the ones who grew up reading the stories by Lee and Kirby. They were the ones who laid the groundwork for subsequent generations. They created these characters that captured the imagination of those kids who picked up an issue of Fantastic Four or X-Men, and later went on to be the ones who wrote them.
Yeah, that messed me up as well. I voted "yes" to the thread title, when I should have voted "no" to the poll question.
yuh, right, ok. That's why it's the classic Lee stories that are STILL being made into movies, and that are still considered the classic mythos of these characters.
riiiiight.
Lee knows more about writing - real, literary writing - than ANY of the writers today. Hell, these guys can't even master Elizabethan English!
IIRC, Stan couldn't either.
Checkmate
Commodore
You seem to have trouble with it yourself.
I think I'll stick with my opinion on the subject rather than a rabid fanboy's who thinks "yuh" is an actual word. Doubly so when that fanboy uses it in the same rant he complains about other people's writing.
Love the random use of the shift key, too.
You could call his writing outdated if you like, but Lee's runs on Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, and Thor are still among the best ever for those characters. All subsequent writers of these and other Lee/Kirby, Lee/Ditko creations based much of their work on his work. He was a true creative genius, especially when you consider how much he wrote. He was practically writing the entire Marvel Universe single-handedly in the 60s. Maybe his dialogue could be considered somewhat simplistic and a little juvenile by today's standards but it fit the times in which he lived, and that's all that matters.
What I have to laugh at is that comics are a visual medium and it wasn't only Stan's writing that sold the books. It was Jack Kirby's dynamic art.
"Rabid fanboy...?"
I don't know what your problem is, but I'll stack my ability to use the Queen's English properly against your own any day (and by "Queen's English," I refer to the current queen, though you have erroneously stated that I endeavored to use the English of the sixteenth century). I find it most unfortunate that you're unable to recognize the use of colloquial slang for emphasis and its propriety in the context of a "chat" board. Context appears to be a concept that eludes you, as is hypocrisy, since your own post (note: "post," as opposed to formal writing) would hardly find favor with Strunk and White.
I'll bet you were broken-hearted when you found no typos to exploit.
Thus, you are either a fool or an asshole. Which is it?
Lee has benefited materially from nepotism; not a thing he's created since the time he worked with Kirby and Ditko has shown much commercial potential.
But...I'm sure Stripperella will break that curse.
But...I'm sure Stripperella will break that curse.
Checkmate
Commodore
Mmhmm. The foaming at the mouth as you hunched over your keyboard pecking away in furious anger was pretty obvious in your original reply.
Not a problem. I just find hypocrisy hilarious. Especially when someone writes a post where they're clearly wheezing and snorting out their reply, yelling at anyone and everyone about how they're the definitive authority on who can and cannot write, all the while using made-up words, throwing capitalization around seemingly at random, and sounding like a dumbass because of it.
It's doubly hilarious when they can't even register the hypocrisy themselves, but instead spend at least an hour pulling out their thesaurus and trying to write a second reply to show just how "civilized" they actually are.
And all because one sad, little fanboy couldn't stand the idea that someone else didn't understand the unworthy worship of an alleged idol.
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So... that would be idiot and asshole, then? Your characterization of my initial post is so far off base as to be truly bizarre. One wonders whether you have much contact with the world around you. Just what color is the sky in your world?
I truly don't know why you're looking to pick a fight, but this is one you won't win. As the old saying goes, I choose not to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent (as is made abundantly clear by your confusion over the English language, your misconception that one must use a thesaurus to write correctly (though perhaps in your circles there is some basis for that assumption), and your fundamental misunderstanding of my post and mistakes about me).
I was a successful trial lawyer when you were still a gleam in the milkman's eye, sonny. Fanboy that. And while that might be a boast, it is nonetheless accurate. You'll doubtless call it a lie. More's the pity. But I guess that's easier to live with than having your myopic little world view ripped open.
EDIT: oh, waitaminute. Now I get it. You're ONE of this generation of illiterate writers, aren't you? That's the only explanation for the knee-jerk hostility.
In fairness, of course, the entire generation is not illiterate. Far from it.
Sadly, though, you are.
I truly don't know why you're looking to pick a fight, but this is one you won't win. As the old saying goes, I choose not to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent (as is made abundantly clear by your confusion over the English language, your misconception that one must use a thesaurus to write correctly (though perhaps in your circles there is some basis for that assumption), and your fundamental misunderstanding of my post and mistakes about me).
I was a successful trial lawyer when you were still a gleam in the milkman's eye, sonny. Fanboy that. And while that might be a boast, it is nonetheless accurate. You'll doubtless call it a lie. More's the pity. But I guess that's easier to live with than having your myopic little world view ripped open.
EDIT: oh, waitaminute. Now I get it. You're ONE of this generation of illiterate writers, aren't you? That's the only explanation for the knee-jerk hostility.
In fairness, of course, the entire generation is not illiterate. Far from it.
Sadly, though, you are.
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