Dissection of animals for non-medical students

[YellowSubmarine]

I think there's something to be said for doing a dissection with your own two hands. There's a verisimilitude to that which you can't get from a computer model. And yeah, if you eat meat, this is a rather silly thing to be worrying about. It's not like they're being killed for no reason--it's for education. Personally, I think that's a higher purpose than killing them for sport or for food.

I believe that somewhere in the far future, people will stop eating meat. Not because it is inherently wrong, but because it's not clear when and how it is OK to eat an animal. I don't believe there is anything wrong in the meat that I eat (save for the cruelty that should stop), but I struggle to tell where the line should be drawn.

For that reason, I would be relieved if mankind didn't need to kill animals to sustain itself, even though that I eat them now. I also find it disturbing that people think that the current situation is perfectly fine, and things like hunting for sport and dissection for no reason only reassert that. And in those cases it's really unnecessary, and emotionally troubling, for me at least.

So, I'm with the OP here.

 

[scotpens]

. . . But frankly, if you are not serious about going into medicine or biology beforehand, then I don't think it's worth it to kill or torment some creature just for your information when if you're just a casual student, all you need to know is "how the parts fit together."

And the fact that someone bragged about a vivisection in this thread, like that was fun? That only proves my point about the cavalier attitude towards life encouraged by such wanton, wasteful practices. Unless you are in medicine and doing this to save the lives of people and other animals, it's simply needless and cruel. (And even then--vivisection? Really? That is way too far and points to an even more severe problem.)

Again, you throw around words like "wasteful" and "cruel" without any facts to support your opinion.

Who bragged about vivisection?

Certainly not I -- I simply recounted the experience of dissecting frogs that had been rendered insensate. Where did I say that it was fun?

 

[T'Girl]

Unless you are in medicine and doing this to save the lives of people and other animals, it's simply needless and cruel.

Not everyone considers animals to be "little Humans." Dissecting a animal in a science class might (in some cases) spark a young student's imagination in the sciences. Encouraging a career in one of the science fields.

I once asked my veterinarian how they developed a drug that had been prescribed for my cat ... you guessed it, animal experimentation on live cats.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Not everyone considers animals to be "little Humans."

The question is why? Or how do you know they aren't? Sure, they probably aren't, but it's the word “probably” that I often find bothering. Lately we've discovered some animals are much closer to us than we imagined, and we've also discovered that we have no damn clue how to measure that.

If a spaceship with aliens landed on Earth earlier than 200 years ago, we most probably cooked them. At least that's roughly what happens in a fictional story I'm writing right now.

The thing is, we used to rank animals on how close to us they look, now we rank them on how they act and how do we believe they think, when most probably we should rank them on how they feel and what's going on in their mind. Unfortunately, we can't dissect that yet.

 

[RJDiogenes]

I believe that somewhere in the far future, people will stop eating meat.

I don't necessarily think that people will stop eating meat, but I think that it won't be long before meat can be grown as meat, rather than as part of an animal, which will eliminate all possibility of cruelty.

Of course, it will also raise all sorts of questions about the cannibalism taboo, but what the hell-- if it's not one thing, it's another.

 

[scotpens]

. . .If a spaceship with aliens landed on Earth earlier than 200 years ago, we most probably cooked them. At least that's roughly what happens in a fictional story I'm writing right now.

What's it called -- To Serve Martian?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I believe that somewhere in the far future, people will stop eating meat.

I don't necessarily think that people will stop eating meat, but I think that it won't be long before meat can be grown as meat, rather than as part of an animal, which will eliminate all possibility of cruelty.

Oh, that's what I meant. We won't stop eating meat, of course. That won't happen.

Of course, it will also raise all sorts of questions about the cannibalism taboo, but what the hell-- if it's not one thing, it's another.

Taboos are usually silly – there's nothing wrong about eating that kind of meat if nobody died for it. I'm not sure if it would even carry the same infection threat that comes with real cannibalism – the grown meat won't have a real immune system, artificial means for disinfection will be used instead, so human pathogens won't find their home there much more than in other meat.

Now, the question is why the hell would you want to do that, and why do you mention it at all, but now I can't help imagining the face of someone travelling to the future only to be served a hamburger with human meat in a fast food chain.

What's it called -- To Serve Martian?

The aliens get to save their asses in the end and not end up in a pan (I think – I've not decided on their fate yet). But I'm trying to express exactly the same sentiment I do here – that we can barely recognize something with sentience and intelligence unless the intelligence hits us right into the face, so we'd just lump another sentient species together with the rest of the animal world without even knowing it.

 

[Myasishchev]

This thread really brings to mind the expression, "First World Problems."

Because debates over unnecessary cruelty to animals only date back to 1950, not the early Iron Age.

 

[scotpens]

Taboos are usually silly – there's nothing wrong about eating that kind of meat if nobody died for it. I'm not sure if it would even carry the same infection threat that comes with real cannibalism – the grown meat won't have a real immune system, artificial means for disinfection will be used instead, so human pathogens won't find their home there much more than in other meat.

Now, the question is why the hell would you want to do that . . .

Same reason dogs lick their balls — because they can!

Seriously, I’ll bet a lot of adventurous folk would eat cloned or cultured human meat just out of curiosity. Since it doesn’t come from actual dead humans, a lot of the reflexive “ick factor” would be eliminated. (See: Recent Cannibalism Thread)

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Taboos are usually silly – there's nothing wrong about eating that kind of meat if nobody died for it. I'm not sure if it would even carry the same infection threat that comes with real cannibalism – the grown meat won't have a real immune system, artificial means for disinfection will be used instead, so human pathogens won't find their home there much more than in other meat.

Now, the question is why the hell would you want to do that . . .

Same reason dogs lick their balls — because they can!

Seriously, I’ll bet a lot of adventurous folk would eat cloned or cultured human meat just out of curiosity. Since it doesn’t come from actual dead humans, a lot of the reflexive “ick factor” would be eliminated. (See: Recent Cannibalism Thread)

When you die maybe you should donate your body to people who want to eat human meat. Then you could kind of live out your dream... well, not "live" it out, but you know what I mean.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I believe that somewhere in the far future, people will stop eating meat.

I don't necessarily think that people will stop eating meat, but I think that it won't be long before meat can be grown as meat, rather than as part of an animal, which will eliminate all possibility of cruelty.

Now that is actually a very interesting idea right there. I don't know what the logistics of it would be, since I'm sure it would take some work to ensure safety, quality, and so on, but I think that would be a neat way to make sure that we can have the variety of diet our bodies are designed for, and at the quantities we need given our enormous population.

In the interim, though, I would say we ought to at least do everything we can to mitigate unnecessary suffering.

 

[Amaris]

I hated animal dissection in our biology class in high school. I refused to do it on ethical grounds, and I was given a failing grade.

 

[Myasishchev]

I hated animal dissection in our biology class in high school. I refused to do it on ethical grounds, and I was given a failing grade.

Really? Did they make the Hindu kids eat sloppy joes at your school too? (That's a joke, folks. I realize the issues are distinct.)

Anyway, that's a lawsuit. Worked for Jenifer Graham.

 

[Kestra]

I do think dissection is of some importance even before college-age, for basically the reasons others have noted. I think these types of experiences can lead people into or away from science. There's a huge difference between the glossy pictures of a heart, for example, and seeing and touching a real one. It can be startling. I also believe it's important that we understand what we are on the inside. It's significant to note that while I believe dissection can be an important learning experience even at the school level, that has to be balanced with other interests. If the animals are already dead and available, and weren't harmed for the purposes of dissection, I don't think there's an issue.

One thing that stayed with me from cat dissection in high school was the fatty cat. One poor set of lab partners got a cat that was obese and took ages longer than the rest of us to perform their assigned tasks because there was fatty tissue everywhere. It made everything more difficult to find and I still think about that when I think about my own eating habits.

That, and my dad showing me cake frosting and saying, "See how it sticks to the fork? That's what it does to your arteries!" But that's a different story.

 

[MHT1138]

I gotta say I am in the pro dissection camp. Everyone at my high school took biology where we dissected a fetal pig. We were able to see the organs and systems of a mammal, which is what we are. Since we are all mammals, there is a benefit to dissection for all of us, even the ones, like me, who did not go into science. A computer program is not a complete substitute for dissection..
Now, not everyone can handle a dissection, so no one should be forced or pressured to participate. There are other ways to learn about organs and systems. They are not as effective so dissection should be encouraged.

 

[SG-17]

I believe that somewhere in the far future, people will stop eating meat.

I don't necessarily think that people will stop eating meat, but I think that it won't be long before meat can be grown as meat, rather than as part of an animal, which will eliminate all possibility of cruelty.

Of course, it will also raise all sorts of questions about the cannibalism taboo, but what the hell-- if it's not one thing, it's another.

A grow your own sirloin kit? I like that idea. Ooooh, bacon trees too.



Anyway, aren't most dissected/vivisected animals composted?

 

[RJDiogenes]

Of course, it will also raise all sorts of questions about the cannibalism taboo, but what the hell-- if it's not one thing, it's another.

Taboos are usually silly – there's nothing wrong about eating that kind of meat if nobody died for it. I'm not sure if it would even carry the same infection threat that comes with real cannibalism – the grown meat won't have a real immune system, artificial means for disinfection will be used instead, so human pathogens won't find their home there much more than in other meat.

Now, the question is why the hell would you want to do that, and why do you mention it at all, but now I can't help imagining the face of someone travelling to the future only to be served a hamburger with human meat in a fast food chain.

Eh, I'm a writer. I think of twisted stuff like that. I think it's a great story idea.

I believe that somewhere in the far future, people will stop eating meat.

I don't necessarily think that people will stop eating meat, but I think that it won't be long before meat can be grown as meat, rather than as part of an animal, which will eliminate all possibility of cruelty.

Now that is actually a very interesting idea right there. I don't know what the logistics of it would be, since I'm sure it would take some work to ensure safety, quality, and so on, but I think that would be a neat way to make sure that we can have the variety of diet our bodies are designed for, and at the quantities we need given our enormous population.

I'm not sure what the logistics will be, either. Maybe something like this. But probably not.

A grow your own sirloin kit? I like that idea. Ooooh, bacon trees too.

I want to have a garden where I grow wheat, tomatoes and bacon. Home-fresh BLTs whenever I want.

 

[Myasishchev]

I do think dissection is of some importance even before college-age, for basically the reasons others have noted. I think these types of experiences can lead people into or away from science. There's a huge difference between the glossy pictures of a heart, for example, and seeing and touching a real one. It can be startling. I also believe it's important that we understand what we are on the inside. It's significant to note that while I believe dissection can be an important learning experience even at the school level, that has to be balanced with other interests. If the animals are already dead and available, and weren't harmed for the purposes of dissection, I don't think there's an issue.

But... they're already dead because somebody killed 'em. Unlike human subjects, which you can usually assume died of natural causes or misadventure.

Anyway, this might be a sensitive question, it's not a smartass question but it's entirely possible if not probable that this is my own ignorance talking, but does this intersect with your faith in any fashion?

Of course, Hindus have wildly varying attitudes toward animal consumption and related practices, which I realize. I think I already know the answer to this, but don't want to make assumptions, either.

Eh, I'm a writer. I think of twisted stuff like that. I think it's a great story idea.

What do you think Arthur Clarke, Iain Banks, or Warren Ellis would taste like?

But that would be pretty great. I wouldn't have to be a vegetarian anymore. Which, let me assure you, other than the inbuilt feeling of moral superiority, is a really fucking obnoxious way to live.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Given that animal dissection in high school is totally unheard of in Italy (and I suspect in most of Europe as well), I don't see any noticeable difference in knowledge about biology between here and there. So I suspect its usefulness as a learning experience might be quite overestimated. (Now, medical and veterinary school is obviously another matter.)

I might be wrong, tho. Do anyone have some data on the subject?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

I think there might be slight cognitive bias: If you've done dissection the experience left you with the perception that it can't be replaces with simulations and that you learnt things that are very important. We all tend to exaggerate the importance of our experiences. Dissection (and by that I mean a lot of dissections) is a good first step in learning how to operate on a living body, but beyond that, I have some doubts it's as useful as claimed on its own.