In Defense of Janeway as a Captain
- Thread starter starlitegirl
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IMO what it comes down to is the producers. They had a very intriguing premise. What they failed on was getting the support for that premise, namely writers that could do more than come up with an idea, but rather carry it thru. And make sure that they could find the actor that could live up to that standard and keep it for the episode or two that they were needed. That would be a challenge I would not desire to have. I'm sure the budget wouldn't allow for it either. Again, perhaps my expectations were too high.
You're wasting your time. Anwar always dictates what people believe. Even if you state plainly that you don't believe it, he will inform you that you do. No matter how hard you try to explain your actual opinion, he will break it down to a single sentence of black-and-white extremes, claim that you have double standards, and that you would always dislike VOY in every possible alternate universe of circumstances. He has been doing this same routine for years, like a religious crusader.
I commend you for your admission that you have largely forgotten about Voyager. I think many posters here have forgotten Voyager or have gone through a single viewing a decade or so past. This unfamiliarity, however, doesn't prevent them from drawing the usual inane conclusions about Janeway being "schizophrenic" or worse (if they truly understood what the term meant, they would realize how uneducated they sound in applying it to her). I would suggest that many posters should return and watch the series through before they draw conclusions based on a viewing that is incomplete or not clearly remembered.
Thanks for the commendation. I have no problems admitting my own limitations. I just have problems counting them all
I do seem to have an ability to remember shows, movies, songs that I enjoy even though it might have been decades ago. I'll remember lines in a show I've seen only once and that could be a very long time ago. (you have no idea how much that annoys my wife) My point was that, for the most part, Voyager wasn't so good or so bad to stick in my head. It will happen when I watch TNG. I'll get done with the episode and think that there was no wonder I couldn't remember it. It just wasn't good, but it wasn't as bad as some of them were. But, I do remember more of TNG, TOS, and DS9 than I do of VOY.
I wish they could redo the whole thing with a different producer. It had so much potential, could have been so cool, could have been the best of the franchise. But, if wishes were fishes, then we would have smelly wishes.
Sorry that I took it differently than playful banter. My bad. I've seen so many attacks on Voy and Janeway that I just took it that way. Definitely my bad.
As I'm watching TNG, I'm realizing that those were Picard's strengths. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of having specific skills related to the task of running the ship, but for missions of exploration, peace and forming alliances, Picard did have perfect traits and now it makes a bit more sense regarding the missions they had on TNG.
I think Janeway rewriting history was less schizophrenic and more about dedication to her crew and the 20 something members they lost. I think they chose that for some consistency with the caretaker episode that stranded them in the Delta quadrant. Bad writing choice. They wanted to use the guilt factor, which I still maintain was a fatal flaw that essentially doomed her character from the start in the grander scheme of things.
I agree with your point especially when you toss in previous decisions she made to not mess with timelines or not change the impact they had on the Delta Quadrant. But I take into consideration Janeway overall as a character after removing poor plot choices and devices the writers choose to use. They manipulated her as it suited them which is why at times she seems as if she has multiple personalities. That is an inconsistent character. If you remove the bad decisions made by writers in key choices, which are obvious gender bias issues the writers had with a female Captain who they had to write as a nurturer, protector and even a mother, then Janeway stands as a great Captain. I don't have as much issue with her being a nurturer, protector and mother as I do with the fact that they took those wonderful traits and applied them in such a way that she was loyal to no one. If nothing else, they should have made her always loyal to the Prime Directive. But they made her so inconsistent that the result is lots of questionable decisions. Had they taken the time to choose her core loyalties or give her some clear priorities, the character would have been excellent. This is what happens when writers use gender stereotypes without looking at the larger picture of what that person's driving belief system is. That's what made her seem insane.
Would you please explain how you see the shows premise. Perhaps I'm missing something here. I am quite old.
I do remember the premise being explained when it launched and thinking then that it could be the best of the franchise.
What I'm saying is that they did not have to make it so the caretaker couldn't even self-destruct. Crap happens all the time in episodes that leaves the various crews in an unpleasant situation. Why did they have to have her be the one to destroy the array? That was completely unnecessary except that they wanted to use it to build future stories on that decision. It was also inconsistent of the caretaker who let countless people die as a result of searching for someone compatible to have him suddenly even care about getting Voyager home. He was only sympathetic to the Ocampa. That way his loyalty. So he should have self-destructed the damn thing to protect the Ocampa, but the creators/writers/producers chose to leave it up to Janeway. That made it either save the Ocampans and the quadrant from the evil Kazons or save your crew despite the statement that they probably wouldn't be able to get home. They still stuck her in that position. It was such bad writing that they didn't even have the guts to make it either get them home or destroy the array. Instead they chose the weaker 'they probably couldn't get home and they still have to destroy the array'. The Caretaker should have used his last bit of energy to destroy the array. That was some of the crappiest and laziest writing I've ever seen. The Caretaker was a self-pitying pathetic entity who was only loyal to the Ocampans. End it with him self-destructing the array after telling Janeway why he did what he did and that she best get back to her ship before they are killed in the blast. That would have created consistent characters. That would have been a smarter writing choice. Now they are stranded but it had nothing to do with any choice or decision Janeway made. Bad stuff happens. It's life, and it's the risk you take on a starship.
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Actually, the premise was pretty awesome IMO. I loved it. It's one of the reasons why it's my favorite of all the series. I just wish they had let the Caretaker self-destruct the damn thing instead of sticking Janeway in that position.
The premise is that a bunch of people on a small, insignificant ship are thrown to the other side of the Galaxy. Even though the same thing happened to Kirk and Picard with both returning home easily, these guys can't (an early sign of incompetence).
The premise says they will never have any support, meaning no one will EVER help them in ANY way because it would violate the premise. Doing so is a betrayal of the premise and unforgivable.
The crew is made up of two groups who are nominally opposed, but really don't have enough in the way of differences for it to have any impact on the show.
Since they are just one tiny insignificant ship with an insignificant crew (no one famous, no "chosen ones", no God-Humans, no Flagship personnel) nothing they do can be of any real importance on the Galaxy or the Delta Quadrant's well-being because doing anything would make them too important for one tiny insignificant ship.
And since they're always moving they can never stay in one place without getting complaints no matter the reasoning, meaning they'll never be able to introduce recurring characters or give their new aliens the time they need to be better developed. And since the crew are all alien to the Delta Quadrant they have no connection to local affairs meaning there's no dramatic potential there either.
Being an insignificant tiny ship also means they can't introduce anyone tough because a tiny insignificant ship can't beat anyone, so the only option is to constantly run away like spineless cowards from everything. See folks being attacked by space pirates? Well too bad, we're too insignificant to do anything so we'll just run off and let innocent people get slaughtered because we're too chicken-sh*t to try anything.
That is the premise of Voyager.
The premise says they will never have any support, meaning no one will EVER help them in ANY way because it would violate the premise. Doing so is a betrayal of the premise and unforgivable.
The crew is made up of two groups who are nominally opposed, but really don't have enough in the way of differences for it to have any impact on the show.
Since they are just one tiny insignificant ship with an insignificant crew (no one famous, no "chosen ones", no God-Humans, no Flagship personnel) nothing they do can be of any real importance on the Galaxy or the Delta Quadrant's well-being because doing anything would make them too important for one tiny insignificant ship.
And since they're always moving they can never stay in one place without getting complaints no matter the reasoning, meaning they'll never be able to introduce recurring characters or give their new aliens the time they need to be better developed. And since the crew are all alien to the Delta Quadrant they have no connection to local affairs meaning there's no dramatic potential there either.
Being an insignificant tiny ship also means they can't introduce anyone tough because a tiny insignificant ship can't beat anyone, so the only option is to constantly run away like spineless cowards from everything. See folks being attacked by space pirates? Well too bad, we're too insignificant to do anything so we'll just run off and let innocent people get slaughtered because we're too chicken-sh*t to try anything.
That is the premise of Voyager.
Anwar, I still like the premise. No. I LOVE the premise. However you hate the premise is your problem.
I find it interesting that you see them as insignificant. Are you a Borg drone? Q? God?
They were not insignificant to the people who liked the show. Your determination that they are insignificant seems rather arrogant.
I find it interesting that you see them as insignificant. Are you a Borg drone? Q? God?
They were not insignificant to the people who liked the show. Your determination that they are insignificant seems rather arrogant.
If they weren't insignificant then there wouldn't have been complaints by the audience whenever they did anything big or awesome or epic. Since that's what happened, we're left with the notion that they couldn't do anything epic without it being criticized. Thus, insignificant.
They can cure the Vidiians? They're too important.
They can arrange a meeting with all the Kazon leaders? They're too important.
They stop the Krenim timeship? They're too important.
They can stop the Borg/8472 war? They're too important.
And so on. How the heck is the show supposed to work if they can't DO anything?
Nevermind that Farscape had the fate of the Galaxy be in the hands of some random human who fell through a wormhole and no one cares.
They can cure the Vidiians? They're too important.
They can arrange a meeting with all the Kazon leaders? They're too important.
They stop the Krenim timeship? They're too important.
They can stop the Borg/8472 war? They're too important.
And so on. How the heck is the show supposed to work if they can't DO anything?
Nevermind that Farscape had the fate of the Galaxy be in the hands of some random human who fell through a wormhole and no one cares.
Farscape? Huh? How did Farscape get into this topic?
So you're basing their insignificance on a bunch of wussy whiners who didn't like that they could actually handle themselves rather than limp home with nothing but defeat and failure? Maybe those people who didn't like the show should have turned it off and gone outside and had a life instead of watching it and disliking everything they do. Talk about foolish! What kind of person CHOOSES to watch a show they dislike? People who aren't even intelligent enough to not watch a show they clearly despise are hardly worth the weight of their opinions. If they liked it but had a few issues, that's one thing. But if all they did was find flaws and reasons to dislike it, then they should have not watched the show. That's what wise people do.
I like you.
So then we agree that these fools are irrelevant? Yes?
We can't even assimilate them because they would add flaws to our perfection. Maybe we can keep them for spare parts in emergencies? Or would the parts be equally imperfect? The brains would have to be tossed as they are clearly not capable of higher functioning.
Actually, not a sign of incompetence, at all, but a different direction for the series designed by the writers from the first. That's what a premise is supposed to do--set up the series and differentiate it from the others. And, it could be argued that Kirk and Picard's easy return was part of their premise, too.
The premise doesn't imply that. In fact, Voyager was helped by many aliens along the way.
I have to agree on this one. The Maquis' main argument was with the Cardassians, I suppose, and not so much the Federation.
Helping rid the galaxy of the 8472 threat was pretty significant. The only time they became important, they paid heavily for it (Year of Hell). It was in their best interest to keep a low profile, don't you agree? Besides, who was significant on TOS? TNG? DS9? They were all just your basic Starfleet types.
I have to agree about the failure to include recurring characters (except for Q, of course). However, Voyager did have impact on local affairs many times, and there was plenty of drama with those episodes. One that springs to mind is "Blink of an Eye."
This isn't cowardice as much as their nomadic situation. They are seldom around long enough to figure out which side is the one they should join (see Nightengale). When they could, Voyager helped people along the way, starting with the Ocampa. Look at Counterpoint, where they were helping the telepaths escape from the Devore. Look at Warhead where they prepare to put themselves in danger to save a planet. Look at Friendshiip One where they help the planet rid itself of radiation.
The fact is that Voyager's premise is pretty close to that of TOS. Both Enterprise and TOS are out in deep space operating on their own, and, I guess you could say that both are, therefore, pretty insignificant. Maybe that is why I see so much similarity between Kirk and Janeway.
You obviously don't.
Well, the premise said that they wouldn't have any support for their missions like the other shows did. That means no one at all would be helping them, and anytime they did get help it was a premise violation.
The 8472 thing is what I mean, fans consider that episode the beginning of the Borg decay as villains because it was shown that there was at least one species out there that can hurt them. That VOY was able to do ANYTHING in that story is just another strike against the show.
In TOS they were a special exploration crew on a rare ship that there were only 12 of and had a special half-breed Science Officer. In TNG they were the flagship and had the elite crew, in DS9 the Captain was a Holy Icon to an entire civilization (as well as the importance of guys like Odo). VOY had no one of equal importance in their crew nor was their ship of any importance either.
The 8472 thing is what I mean, fans consider that episode the beginning of the Borg decay as villains because it was shown that there was at least one species out there that can hurt them. That VOY was able to do ANYTHING in that story is just another strike against the show.
In TOS they were a special exploration crew on a rare ship that there were only 12 of and had a special half-breed Science Officer. In TNG they were the flagship and had the elite crew, in DS9 the Captain was a Holy Icon to an entire civilization (as well as the importance of guys like Odo). VOY had no one of equal importance in their crew nor was their ship of any importance either.
So I did understand the premise well. Guess the old grey cells aren't all gone yet. I still hold to that VOY had the best premise of the franchise. Just was very disappointed in it's execution. Perhaps a fresh look is in order.
You sure do like to try to put words in other peoples' mouths an awful lot. But fine, I'll play.
Even in his official capacity before getting flung across the galaxy, Crichton was not in command of anything other than himself and his ship. He's just some guy. A really smart guy, but still. Adama tried not to show weakness in front of anyone except close confidants - and was fairly successful at being the rock of the fleet, as I recall. And the president was 12th in line before the stuff went down - no one ever expected her to be president. JANEWAY took command tests, psych evals that had psychic races involved in their implementation, and was selected to be a Starship Captain from at least dozens of possible candidates - possibly thousands, depending on how large a Starfleet you think the shows demonstrated. But that's another thread.
Yeah - like me. My critique of Voyager is not playful banter. (The Internetz are seriouz bizness.
)Anwar seems to be having part of his argument with voices only he can hear, so I, at least, understand your confusion. He also can't seem to decide whether he is defending Voyager or trashing it.
See? This is the sort of thing that can be taken as not playful banter. Rude. Also, calling other posters names is frowned on around here.
They really should have clarified that they wouldn't have support from Starfleet. It's not like they couldn't find allies unless their people skills sucked that badly.
I think the Borg still were a threat. A major threat. Just because they were able to survive some rounds with them doesn't mean they weren't a threat. If the Cardassians and Romulains were still threats then the Borg were most definitely a threat. I think people just want them to be pulverized into dust or have maybe a 5% survival rate. Yet that is not logical because as you go into battle with an enemy, you study their tactics, you find their weaknesses and you learn to defend against their strengths. That Voy was able to fight them shows that they were capable of learning and adapting. The idea that the Borg would always remain superior implies that all other species lack the ability to adapt, to learn, and to assimilate knowledge. That line of reasoning is inherently flawed. The fact that the Borg is mainly only capable of maintaining their power by assimilating species rather than through interaction and observation shows their inherent inferiority and inability to grow and adapt as a species. Their development is based on a brain sucking existence. At some point that's going to level off and then what? It's not like they were thinking for themselves. Hive minds are only as smart as their smartest individual, and if the smartest individuals are only following commands rather than learning, adapting, testing hypotheses, etc. then eventually they hit a plateau. Hence the Borg's need to go into subspace and assimilate 8472. They had already sucked the knowledge out of every worthy brain in their quadrant and even in neighboring ones. The moral of the story is that brain sucking truly is an inferior form of learning and ultimately doomed to failure.
As for the idea that there was nothing particularly special about Voyager because they didn't have Holy Icon, a special crew and were not a flagship, that's not completely accurate. Voyager had that neural brain system with the gel packs. I forget what it was actually called. But it was advanced. So advanced that they had best not lose those spare gel packs or they were completely screwed. Not a flagship or a Holy Icon, but still a ship with an advanced system.
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