Is Data's head still under San Francisco?
- Thread starter USS Triumphant
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Nu uh. Sorry.
There's no mention of hopping universes in the movie. They go back in time, alter events and thus create an alternete reality. It's pretty much what happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise"
There's no mention of hopping universes in the movie. They go back in time, alter events and thus create an alternete reality. It's pretty much what happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise"
As far as I can tell, the theory is something like this:
1. Time is linear. The past is in the past. This means that if, at some future point you travel back in time you are not 'changing the past' at the moment you decide to travel back because the past has already happened. If you go back then you would always have gone back. It is possible to be your own grandfather. It isn't possible to go back in time to kill your grandfather before you are conceived so that you can never be born. This is the concept of Times Arrow, Twelve Monkeys, and Babylon 5's War Without End (the heritage of Valen always existed).
2. In many worlds theory the concept of 'creating' an alternate timeline is a misconception. Every possible timeline already exists. When you throw time travel into the mix, this includes timelines where every potential time traveller travels to every conceivable point in time. It also includes the concept of time travel bottlenecks where multiple time travellers end up at the same point in time in near infinite combinations. All the viewer is doing is jumping tracks to the 'alternate' timeline at the moment the time travel occurs. The time traveller is the one jumping tracks not the people in the timeline. So, despite the writers claiming that Nero 'created' the timeline, that's unlikely to be the case and there will be an almost infinite number of other universes where Nero travelled backward and arrived one second later, one second earlier and so on. I suppose it's true that he 'created' the timeline in that the characters we see are reactions to the events in which he was involved but he no more 'created' the timeline than Kirk did by eating cornflakes this morning.
3. None of this precludes the possibility that in this particular universe, a version of Data goes back in time and leaves his head behind. If it will happen then it has happened but whether it happened in the Prime Universe is somewhat moot.
4. It's impossible to 'restore' the timeline. The original timeline still exists and never changes. The characters we follow jump tracks into their own alternate timeline and usually jump tracks again to a similar but often different timeline at the resolution of the story e.g. Yesterday's Enterprise; the whole series of Enterprise on multiple occasions. If they 'restore' the timeline (excluding predestination theory above), all the time travellers would be doing would be jumping back to their original timeline where their time travel never happened e.g. a timeline where Sela did not exist.
5. Since every conceivable timeline exists in every combination, the concept of Temporal Police to make sure no time travellers interfere is redundant.
To summarise, Data's head is probably under San Francisco but it will be NuData not TOS Data.
Many worlds theory sucks and it appears that the writers don't really understand the concept themselves. Well, actually, Spock's comment about the universe trying to heal itself as an excuse for lazy writing should have made that much obvious!
1. Time is linear. The past is in the past. This means that if, at some future point you travel back in time you are not 'changing the past' at the moment you decide to travel back because the past has already happened. If you go back then you would always have gone back. It is possible to be your own grandfather. It isn't possible to go back in time to kill your grandfather before you are conceived so that you can never be born. This is the concept of Times Arrow, Twelve Monkeys, and Babylon 5's War Without End (the heritage of Valen always existed).
2. In many worlds theory the concept of 'creating' an alternate timeline is a misconception. Every possible timeline already exists. When you throw time travel into the mix, this includes timelines where every potential time traveller travels to every conceivable point in time. It also includes the concept of time travel bottlenecks where multiple time travellers end up at the same point in time in near infinite combinations. All the viewer is doing is jumping tracks to the 'alternate' timeline at the moment the time travel occurs. The time traveller is the one jumping tracks not the people in the timeline. So, despite the writers claiming that Nero 'created' the timeline, that's unlikely to be the case and there will be an almost infinite number of other universes where Nero travelled backward and arrived one second later, one second earlier and so on. I suppose it's true that he 'created' the timeline in that the characters we see are reactions to the events in which he was involved but he no more 'created' the timeline than Kirk did by eating cornflakes this morning.
3. None of this precludes the possibility that in this particular universe, a version of Data goes back in time and leaves his head behind. If it will happen then it has happened but whether it happened in the Prime Universe is somewhat moot.
4. It's impossible to 'restore' the timeline. The original timeline still exists and never changes. The characters we follow jump tracks into their own alternate timeline and usually jump tracks again to a similar but often different timeline at the resolution of the story e.g. Yesterday's Enterprise; the whole series of Enterprise on multiple occasions. If they 'restore' the timeline (excluding predestination theory above), all the time travellers would be doing would be jumping back to their original timeline where their time travel never happened e.g. a timeline where Sela did not exist.
5. Since every conceivable timeline exists in every combination, the concept of Temporal Police to make sure no time travellers interfere is redundant.
To summarise, Data's head is probably under San Francisco but it will be NuData not TOS Data.
Many worlds theory sucks and it appears that the writers don't really understand the concept themselves. Well, actually, Spock's comment about the universe trying to heal itself as an excuse for lazy writing should have made that much obvious!
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But your willfully ignoring writer intent here. The universe branched in 2233 creating two timelines out of the single Prime timeline.
Just because things don't seem linear from our limited point of view, doesn't mean 'cause and effect' still aren't in play.
Not exactly. Writer intent seems to be to create a third theory where there are just a few alternate timelines running parallel and time travel events create new branches. That raises more questions than it answers. When NuKirk travels back in time to collect some whales are you suggesting that he should meet TOS Kirk and co in their shared past? Who gets the whales?
But your proposing that all things are going to be equal by the time we reach 2285 in the Abramsverse. With the presence of Spock Prime, many of these issues may be solved or play out differently. Whose to say that Spock Prime doesn't champion the cause of going into the distant past with a much larger ship to bring dozens of whales forward so there is a viable genetic base going forward, ensuring the survival of the species? Fixing some short-sightedness of his own when he was younger.
Whose to say that the time we reach 2265, that young Kirk and the Enterprise aren't destroyed by some unforeseen phenomenon that destroyed some other ship in the Prime timeline?
We just don't know.
Spock Prime's additional backwards trip would be altering the past in some other way, creating yet another timeline, where they will also have to travel back to their shared past to get more whales. Yikes - maybe that's WHY they went extinct... which makes this a pre-destination paradox after all!
The only reason the writers have redrafted the way in which many worlds theory is described is because the trials and tribulations of our characters would have less impact if we paused to think that a near infinite number of alternate versions are succeeding and failing in the same task.
Many worlds theory sucks but it still makes more sense than the version you are proposing.
Many worlds theory sucks but it still makes more sense than the version you are proposing.
Many worlds sucks the drama right out of the story? Go back and read my thoughts on that around the time the film was released.
But the science of Star Trek rarely makes sense when compared with its real world counterpart. I figured that out at age five in 1975. Which is why I usually go with writer intent. They say the universe split in 2233 and that the two universes shared a common history prior to that. So that's how the in-universe discussion should be framed. In my opinion.
If Star Trek not syncing with real world scientific theories bothers you... you might want to find another hobby.
Many worlds theory sucks but it still makes more sense than the version you are proposing.
Many worlds sucks the drama right out of the story? Go back and read my thoughts on that around the time the film was released.
But the science of Star Trek rarely makes sense when compared with its real world counterpart. I figured that out at age five in 1975. Which is why I usually go with writer intent. They say the universe split in 2233 and that the two universes shared a common history prior to that. So that's how the in-universe discussion should be framed. In my opinion.
If Star Trek not syncing with real world scientific theories bothers you... you might want to find another hobby.
Lol. Unless your hobby is trashing Trek's scientific incongruities of course!
Trek's approach to time travel has been very inconsistent, that's true. In fairness to Star Trek, it still makes a lot more sense than Dr Who...I prefer pre-destination because I find it cleverer from a storytelling perspective, it limits the number of times you can do time travel stories (because it would get repetitive), limits the ludicrous 'villain travels back intending to change the past' routine while still leaving 'villain travels back to escape justice' or 'villain travels back to bring something or someone forward' or 'did anybody actually make these glasses before they were caught in the time loop?'
I'm not unhappy with NuTrek's proto-reboot; I think it was a clever way of revamping the franchise. However, I do think people who believe that the past remains the TOS past are barking up the wrong timeline.
In other words, I'll see your writer intent and raise you 'Shakaree at the centre of the universe'. Do you still want to stand by writer intent as the deciding factor?
Yes I do. Unless you can show me a another case of Red Matter created time travel that conflicts with the events of Star Trek 2009 and/or the explanation of the writers.
So to again answer the original posters' question. Yes, Data's head is still buried in San Francisco.
I also prefer time travel stories that deal with a single timeline. It's more dramatically satisfying... but that's not what they gave us here.
Ok. I admire your tenacity and we can agree to disagree. Finding Spock Prime in a random cave was a terrible writing decision and finding Data Prime in a cave could sit right alongside it, I suppose. However, for the record you just speeded up an unmodified Starfleet ship by a factor of - hell I don't know - thousands of warp factors, which, for the sake of consistency would explain how they got to Vulcan so fast but not why they couldn't have got to the Laurentian system and back... Still, now that they can beam people light years does it even matter?
I need to lie down.
I think the problem is that the question is unclear and is dependent on "when" you're looking. Because every time someone travels into the past they're spawning a new timeline.
A - The Primeverse until the events of Time's Arrow. Data's head isn't in the past. Guinan and Picard met at a bar, or such.
B - The Primeverse after the events of Time's Arrow (technically, because of the large number of jumps into the past, this is probably closer to E or F). Data's head is in the past. Guinan met Picard in the past.
C - A Nuverse. Nero pops back and destroys the Kelvin. We don't get much exposure to this universe because...
D - The Nuverse. Nero pops back and destroys the Kelvin. Spock shows up and Trek '09 happens as seen. Data's head isn't in the past; it can't be because he doesn't exist yet...he can't travel into the past if he doesn't exist. Events proceed until TNG.
The problem is, we don't know what happens next. If Data is built and goes back in time, then there could be a timeline E where Data's head is in the past...but there's no guarantee of that.
Is Trek '09 set in a timeline where the Time's Arrow events will happen in a close enough form for Data's head to show up in the past? Maybe.
In any event, nobody from the Nuverse is going to find PrimeData's head because the Nuverse events preempt Data's time travel. Of course, they could travel into an alternate timeline via other means and then find PrimeData's head.
A - The Primeverse until the events of Time's Arrow. Data's head isn't in the past. Guinan and Picard met at a bar, or such.
B - The Primeverse after the events of Time's Arrow (technically, because of the large number of jumps into the past, this is probably closer to E or F). Data's head is in the past. Guinan met Picard in the past.
C - A Nuverse. Nero pops back and destroys the Kelvin. We don't get much exposure to this universe because...
D - The Nuverse. Nero pops back and destroys the Kelvin. Spock shows up and Trek '09 happens as seen. Data's head isn't in the past; it can't be because he doesn't exist yet...he can't travel into the past if he doesn't exist. Events proceed until TNG.
The problem is, we don't know what happens next. If Data is built and goes back in time, then there could be a timeline E where Data's head is in the past...but there's no guarantee of that.
Is Trek '09 set in a timeline where the Time's Arrow events will happen in a close enough form for Data's head to show up in the past? Maybe.
In any event, nobody from the Nuverse is going to find PrimeData's head because the Nuverse events preempt Data's time travel. Of course, they could travel into an alternate timeline via other means and then find PrimeData's head.
As linear beings we struggle with this concept. We need to think more like the Prophets. Data's head either is or is not in the past. If it isn't, it's because he never left it there. If it is, it's because he did leave it there.
However, it doesn't wink into existence the moment he goes back. If his act of going back were to create a new timeline only at that moment then what happens to the original timeline? I think it would have to be overwritten, which is inconsistent the 'writers' intent' again isn't it? Maybe the problem is that different writers had different intents and they simply aren't compatible?
If the future and the past did not exist as definable qualities in the present, then the prophets would not so aware of everything. Don't ask me if they are also aware of the many worlds theory.
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If Crewman Daniels' 31th century junk is still in his cabin after the events of "Shockwave" (where Prime Trek first diverged from the history that Daniels remembers), which it was, then Data's head should be in San Fransisco. A ghost of a timeline that (from our current perspective) won't come to pass. Ditto Admial Janeway's advanced shuttle in "Endgame", the Jellyfish in STXI and all the time displaced characters that ever altered Trek history.
All of this fits neatly with an infinitely branching, shared-past multiverse but makes no sense in a bunch of seperate-but-similar timelines.
Choke on that, fellow wannabe Trek timeline experts
All of this fits neatly with an infinitely branching, shared-past multiverse but makes no sense in a bunch of seperate-but-similar timelines.
Choke on that, fellow wannabe Trek timeline experts
If Crewman Daniels' 31th century junk is still in his cabin after the events of "Shockwave" (where Prime Trek first diverged from the history that Daniels remembers), which it was, then Data's head should be in San Fransisco. A ghost of a timeline that (from our current perspective) won't come to pass. Ditto Admial Janeway's advanced shuttle in "Endgame", the Jellyfish in STXI and all the time displaced characters that ever altered Trek history.
All of this fits neatly with an infinitely branching, shared-past multiverse but makes no sense in a bunch of seperate-but-similar timelines.
Choke on that, fellow wannabe Trek timeline experts
The movie Millennium did an interesting spin on that kind of temporal theory except there, altering the past overwrote the future with a destructive paradox. We also have Year of Hell, which was fun but made very little sense even by their own standards.
The whole concept of temporal police is pointless in 'true' many worlds theory so anything that features them is obviouly not going to support such a notion. Does the branching timeline have any scientific support? I suppose the advantage for a scientific version is that backwards time travel is considered impossible isn't it? I think it's the most common (and most stupid) of sci fi's time travel theories because it has the greatest possibility for drama. Seriously though, even if that was the writers' intent, it's still pretty stupid. While I ADORE Granny Janeway, story logic was entirely absent from the final episode of Voyager.
Ok, a quick look on the net has turned up no support for Data Prime's head. I did find this on a wiki in support of Time's Arrow:
"However, the series does not consistently obey the Novikov principle in episodes featuring time travel, as episodes like Time Squared and Yesterday's Enterprise show history being changed as a result of time travel."
Even many worlds theory says that it's impossible for the different worlds to interact.
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Like Sela.
DonIago said:
That doesn't work. If Data's head isn't in the past until the events of Time's Arrow, then how is it discovered to have been under San Francisco for nearly 500 years at the beginning of the events of Time's Arrow?
DonIago said:
It doesn't matter.
TNG Data's head is already in the past of the Prime timeline when Nero goes back in time to 2233 and creates the branching Abramsverse. The head is there in Prime 2233 and is thus also there in the Abramsverse.
Pauln6 said:
That doesn't make much sense. For example, I know of a thread on the Internet where there is "support for Data Prime's head".
Pauln6 said:
Data wasn't in TOS. The head under San Francisco which I refer to is that of TNG Data. Whatever happens with "NuData" is beside the point.
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It's not about tenacity. It's about following the rules as defined by the creators of the story. If we follow the rules as defined by Orci and Kurtzman, then the head of the Data we all know and love is sitting under San Francisco in the Abramsverse.
Because Data's head is discovered in timeline B, not timeline A. Data's head can't be in the past until he has traveled into the past.
The real mystery is what compelled the TNG crew to go into the past originally such that Data's head could be there for them to find later.
The idea that Data's head is there originally is akin to saying that Kirk ends up being gifted in TWOK with the same glasses that he sells in TVH. That doesn't make any sense because someone has to have made the glasses originally.
Hm, quoting didn't work quite right. Sorry about that.
You can maintain that Data's head is already in the past by the time of NuTrek all you'd like, but I disagree. I maintain that Nero travels into a timeline where the head can't be there yet because Data hasn't traveled into the past yet. However, the head can ultimately end up being in the same timeline if Data does travel into the past...except it won't technically be the same timeline because travel into the past creates a new one.
To quote Picard, "It's the chicken and the egg."
Been a while since you've seen Time's Arrow?
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