FX/editing wishlist/technical/related discussion for STNG-R

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

A recent example is the Star Trek movie collection on blu-ray. With the exception of TWOK they brutally 'cleaned' the other TOS movies with a digital algorithm that turned the actors into waxworks and removed the film grain! You can bet that someone argued with the suits to give every movie the TWOK treatment but ultimately they went with the cheaper option

This is something else entirely. It is Paramount Pictures full strategy to release The Motion Picture Collection in this way on Blu-ray in 2009. The Blu-ray format just became the official winner of the HD disc war that year and they had Trek XI to use to push sales of the old property, err TOS films as well.
When 2016 rolls around it will be 7 years on and time for a remaster of that old property to 'polish it up'. Maybe at that time a new 4k telecine, dustbust, and very light-handed DNR for all the films except STII:TWOK. At that time Blu-ray may be strong or it may be something else but delivery via digital of 1080p HD movies will be the norm and a "newly remasted Star Trek III:TSFS" just may sell some digital downloads. 30 years would be 2013 but I don't think we'll see it happen.

I hope they do release the films again and I hope they do it right and doing it all like this is of course typical of Paramount. I do wonder if the people who do this realise they are ruining the movies when they DNR it to hell, perhaps they just DNR it so the clueless suit is happy and then pocket the rest of the budget

Also I prefer the theatrical cut of TMP to the 'Directors Edition' abomination and I doubt they are going to spend the money again on new HD Directors cut FX (unless CBS Digital offer to do it for ultra-low money )

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Paramount just keep shooting themselves in the foot don't they!

1986, somewhere in Paramount:

Tech guy: Hey so I think we should edit this on 35mm film for future proofing purposes as the switch to a higher definition is inevitable at some point in the future.

Executive: Editing on Video Tape saves us about 100k an episode! Future Proof?! Are you insane?!!! LOL. All I care about is my balance sheet for the year and maximising margins. Fuck you tech man!

-------

Paramount Pictures, 2001:

Tech guy: Hey so I think we should render the new special fx for this new TMP directors edition in 1080p to ensure we are ok to go the next gen home video format and for screening on future HD movie channels which are starting to crop up. Y'know, make it future proof.

Executive: Rendering at 480p saves us about 100k! Future Proof?! Are you insane?!!! LOL. All I care about is my balance sheet for the year and maximising margins. Fuck you tech man!

 

[evilnate]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Hahaha...I like it. That being said, I can understand the decision to edit TNG on video. At the time, most TV shows, especially effects-heavy shows were being done that way, and while there were signs that a higher quality TV standard was on the way, no one knew what form that would end up taking.

The TMP-DE decision was really stupid though. There was plenty of HD production going on already, HDTVs were on the market, and they had to know that an HD home delivery system was coming. Really, really stupid.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The TMP-DE decision was really stupid though. There was plenty of HD production going on already, HDTVs were on the market, and they had to know that an HD home delivery system was coming. Really, really stupid.

Director's cut had not been that advanced yet with DVD & possible theatrical rescreenings with the exception of Star Wars (re-edits ala 1997) and Blade Runner final cut was in 2007. Superman (1978) was made a special edition in 2001 so 2001 was really a changeover.

TNG-R would probably be 2K telecine as 4K full post pipeline just would be too costly unless they wait a few years.

 

[evilnate]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The TMP-DE decision was really stupid though. There was plenty of HD production going on already, HDTVs were on the market, and they had to know that an HD home delivery system was coming. Really, really stupid.

Director's cut had not been that advanced yet with DVD & possible theatrical rescreenings with the exception of Star Wars (re-edits ala 1997) and Blade Runner final cut was in 2007. Superman (1978) was made a special edition in 2001 so 2001 was really a changeover.

TNG-R would probably be 2K telecine as 4K full post pipeline just would be too costly unless they wait a few years.

I remember the TMP-DE producers saying that the effects were going to be rendered at a high enough resolution to allow for HD and theatrical viewings. Paramount must have changed their mind, since 480p doesn't exactly allow for that.

As far as TNG-R goes, it would not surprise me to find out that it's done at 1080p only. Even if the live action is done at 2k, the effects would only be rendered at 1080p. I can't beleive that they are thinking that far ahead.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Here is the low-poly under-belly of the D-7...

This model here has far less in the way of shadowing than the original...

Are those screenies for a new TOS n64 game? Sweet!!

 

[BillJ]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Are those screenies for a new TOS n64 game? Sweet!!

I don't think they're quite that bad. Many of the issues just look like CBS Digital didn't have enough time.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

they should somehow redo the shot in the Royale where Riker and company attempt to leave the hotel via revolving door,. They should speed it up or something so it just doesn't look like they just went around.

 

[Capt_Pickirk]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

they should somehow redo the shot in the Royale where Riker and company attempt to leave the hotel via revolving door,. They should speed it up or something so it just doesn't look like they just went around.

Or maybe do something to the footage so that as soon as they go through they instantly come out the other side.

 

[Dac]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Here is the low-poly under-belly of the D-7...

This model here has far less in the way of shadowing than the original...

I honestly wished they had let Eden FX (Enterprise) a crack at redoing the TOS effects.

The word you are looking for is segmented, not Low Poly.

Also, those shots look perfectly reasonable to me. Sure, they're a bit on the segmented side (looks like they could have bumped up their phong values) but they more than fit the purpose of the shot. Besides, if TNG-R looks ANYTHING like that I'll be right there with ya, boycotting it for shit work. TOS-R was a conscious choice to not be photo real, TNG-R can't be that if it wants to be taken seriously.

 

[BillJ]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Also, those shots look perfectly reasonable to me. Sure, they're a bit on the segmented side (looks like they could have bumped up their phong values) but they more than fit the purpose of the shot. Besides, if TNG-R looks ANYTHING like that I'll be right there with ya, boycotting it for shit work. TOS-R was a conscious choice to not be photo real, TNG-R can't be that if it wants to be taken seriously.

I expected the digital models to look as good as their original counterparts. They didn't take these shortcuts with the Enterprise and I didn't expect them to be taken with the D-7. Personally, I'll be pissed if CBS Digital uses this model in TNG-R.

 

[evilnate]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Also, those shots look perfectly reasonable to me. Sure, they're a bit on the segmented side (looks like they could have bumped up their phong values) but they more than fit the purpose of the shot. Besides, if TNG-R looks ANYTHING like that I'll be right there with ya, boycotting it for shit work. TOS-R was a conscious choice to not be photo real, TNG-R can't be that if it wants to be taken seriously.

I expected the digital models to look as good as their original counterparts. They didn't take these shortcuts with the Enterprise and I didn't expect them to be taken with the D-7. Personally, I'll be pissed if CBS Digital uses this model in TNG-R.

I don't see why they would. The D-7 as presented in TOS is very different from the ship that was in the movies and TNG. If they did us this particular model, that would be one hell of a shortcut!

 

[evilnate]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

TOS-R was a conscious choice to not be photo real, TNG-R can't be that if it wants to be taken seriously.

If that's so, it's a really poor decision. The filmed models of the original are by their very nature "photo real". There are numerous other ways they could have evoked a 60's look from new f/x beyond intentionally "dumbing down" their work. As it is, it just comes off as bad CGI, and I'm not convinced that it's anything other than bad CGI, given their budget and time constraints.

 

[BillJ]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

TOS-R was a conscious choice to not be photo real, TNG-R can't be that if it wants to be taken seriously.

If that's so, it's a really poor decision. The filmed models of the original are by their very nature "photo real". There are numerous other ways they could have evoked a 60's look from new f/x beyond intentionally "dumbing down" their work. As it is, it just comes off as bad CGI, and I'm not convinced that it's anything other than bad CGI, given their budget and time constraints.

This.

 

[Captain Verata]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

Damn, I see what you mean. I will look out for these when I watch TOS-R again. I hope TNG-R(if they actually make it) will be nothing but the highest quality model work.

 

[Bonzo the Fifth]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I guess I'm just too young to understand, but I just don't get this passion for 'model fidelity' that some of the posters here seem to have regarding TOS's FX. I can certainly understand it from a historical standpoint, appreciating what they were able to accomplish in the 1960's on a shoestring budget, but that doesn't change the fact that, to me, the FX are, by today's standards, laughably bad. I certainly appreciate the efforts of the TOS-R group to try and keep things as close as they could, and can certainly appreciate what they were able to do with their own shoestring budget and limited timeframe. It's not perfect, far from it, but I can respect it... just as I'll expect something better in another 40 years when they decide to remaster it again... lol

I can deal with the shortcomings on TOS-R, though, because it is a '60's era series. Anything too photorealistic would have just been jarring and weird. And anything that looked like a photorealistic plastic model would have just looked like a fan production using a fan's toy collection. No thank you.

That all being said, the standards and expectations will be higher for TNG-R. At the very least, I think it's safe to say that fans want something equivalent to what was possible by the end of Voyager's or even Enterprise's run in terms of FX quality. As for what kind of shots they decide to do, honestly, it's not that important to me. If they decide to slavishly duplicate every single FX shot, I'll still buy it (though God only knows why they would limit themselves so much), and it they go balls to the wall crazy with it, I'll still buy it (though really, why would they put themselves through that much work when I'm sure whatever budget they'll be working with won't support it.). My expectation is something in the middle, rather like TOS-R ended up being, in terms of shot choices and minor upgrades where they could be reasonably fit in, but with more effort put into the model quality to better match the originals. This shouldn't be difficult, since there's already plenty of acceptable CG models for most of these ships already that have been used in previous productions, unless Paramount was really stupid enough to junk all of that information from past productions....

 

[Maurice]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

The word you are looking for is segmented, not Low Poly.

No, the word is "tessellated".

 

[jefferiestubes8]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I think it's safe to say that fans want something equivalent to what was possible by the end of Voyager's or even Enterprise's run in terms of FX quality.

productions....

I think at the end of ENT the quality were feature film level. Some episodes in season 3 and 4 of ENT had great fx in HD. a lot of it is the lighting and camera movement.
They added camera movement to tos-r fx of the space shots.

 

[Flake]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

I think the 3D CGI in Ent is poor, the models look computer game like - too shiny and fake looking.

The best CGI in a scifi television show is BSG.

 

[BlobVanDam]

Re: What new FX/editing do you want to see in the STNG-R?

ENT had some great looking CG, but the Enterprise itself always looked very CG because of the shininess. I found the CG Voyager much more convincing due to the flat finish.

But if every shot of TNG-R looked as good as the CG Enterprise-D in TATV, I'd be more than happy. It looked amazing in that episode.