Problem in logic

[RoJoHen]

You asked a question. I thought about it and figured out the answer. How is that a coincidence?

It's just a math problem. Granted, it's a math problem that would take 100 days to solve, but it's still just a math problem

If I asked you the number of clouds in the sky, and you told me the number of birds, which happened to be the same, your answer would be correct, but would this not be a coincidence? Have you tried thinking about the riddle again after I had corrected you? I suggest you do so.


Ah, yes, "just". Although both is "just" math, there is a difference between 1+1 and the logarithm of 55,3.

You made a correction, yes, but I still approached the problem the same way. I flat out told you how I solved it. If I'm wrong, explain how, but don't just say so without being able to back it up. I didn't just pull a random number out of my ass that happened to be the right answer. I solved the problem.

This problem wasn't difficult for me to figure out. I'm sorry if it was for you.


EDIT: Let's throw something else out there. Even after the 100 days, while the blue-eyed people may have deducted that they have blue eyes by process of elimination, the brown-eyed people have had no such luck. It's impossible for the brown-eyed people to ever be sure of their eye color, so they are doomed to die on this island.

 

[Lindley]

For the first 99 days, nobody with blue eyes can confirm that they have blue eyes, so none of them leave. On the 100th day, since the other 99 blue-eyed people have been accounted for, the "extra" person has to have blue eyes.

While this is true, it doesn't address the method enough to really demonstrate that you understood why that's the solution....

That is, of course, assuming that the Guru is referring to a different individual each time she says "I can see someone who has blue eyes."

....and, given that your stated assumption was subsequently pointed out to be false, it's natural to question your understanding.

 

[RoJoHen]

For the first 99 days, nobody with blue eyes can confirm that they have blue eyes, so none of them leave. On the 100th day, since the other 99 blue-eyed people have been accounted for, the "extra" person has to have blue eyes.

While this is true, it doesn't address the method enough to really demonstrate that you understood why that's the solution....

Which "method" would that be, exactly?

That is, of course, assuming that the Guru is referring to a different individual each time she says "I can see someone who has blue eyes."

....and, given that your stated assumption was subsequently pointed out to be false, it's natural to question your understanding.

I admit I misread one line in the problem, but that didn't really change the way I thought about it.

 

[Lindley]

Which "method" would that be, exactly?

Well, specifically why this statement is true:

For the first 99 days, nobody with blue eyes can confirm that they have blue eyes, so none of them leave.

This is the heart of the problem, so you can't just gloss it over with an assertion that it's so.
Emilia's (with or without french brackets) explanation up-thread was much more clear on the matter.

 

[RoJoHen]

Which "method" would that be, exactly?

Well, specifically why this statement is true:

For the first 99 days, nobody with blue eyes can confirm that they have blue eyes, so none of them leave.

This is the heart of the problem, so you can't just gloss it over with an assertion that it's so.

I guess I didn't feel the need to explain it because I thought it was pretty damn obvious, but here we go...

Okay, let's say I have blue eyes.

There are 100 people with brown eyes, so I immediately don't care about them.

There are now 99 people with blue eyes that I can see, plus myself. For the first 99 days, I look at those 99 people and see them not leave. Now, obviously, this is because they don't know that they have blue eyes. However, once we get to the 100th day, I reasonably conclude that I must have blue eyes since nobody else has left yet. Simultensouly, everyone else with blue eyes comes to the same conclusion because they have gone through the same thought process as me. We all leave, now knowing that we all have blue eyes.

Meanwhile, the brown-eyed people are standing there going, "But what color are MY eyes?!" And then they cry.

 

[Lindley]

Eh, that isn't a very clear explanation but I'll accept that you understand it.

 

[RoJoHen]

See, and I can read that and know exactly what I'm talking about.

I've never been good at explaining things like this, especially online where I can't use hand motions, but the problem never said, "Show your work."

 

[Ha'kiv]

You made a correction, yes, but I still approached the problem the same way. I flat out told you how I solved it. If I'm wrong, explain how, but don't just say so without being able to back it up. I didn't just pull a random number out of my ass that happened to be the right answer. I solved the problem.

This problem wasn't difficult for me to figure out. I'm sorry if it was for you.

You couldn't have approached the problem in the same way without that piece of information.

However, once we get to the 100th day, I reasonably conclude that I must have blue eyes since nobody else has left yet.

Why? Forgive me, but would you mind explaining this with a situation where there are three people with blue eyes, and three people with brown eyes? The explanation you've provided is too vague.

It is not my intention to be rude or appear presumptuous. However, seeing as I do believe I am not a complete fool, it is only natural for me to conclude that others shouldn't find this so obvious that they do not even feel the need to explain it. I am therefore assuming you do not understand the question.

 

[Kelthaz]

I didn't realize riddles were such serious business.

 

[Scout101]

People think about things differently. Because you struggled with it doesn't mean everyone will, and some people will just read it and answer. Pretty clear from his statements upthread that he got it. You're working on some faulty assumptions if you assume everyone understands things exactly the way you do...

It IS a logic problem, but it's really not that tough of one, once you start down the road Emilia highlighted.

 

[Ha'kiv]

People think about things differently. Because you struggled with it doesn't mean everyone will, and some people will just read it and answer. Pretty clear from his statements upthread that he got it. You're working on some faulty assumptions if you assume everyone understands things exactly the way you do...

We are not exactly different species. Unless someone is familiar with such riddles, he won't read and answer it. The human mind in general does not possess such power to imagine situations as complex as this.

 

[Scout101]

You're clearly wrong, because several people got to the answer right away (or with just a little thought), so there's a problem with your analysis...

Peoples' minds work differently. One person might look at a math problem all day and struggle, one might just glance at it and see that the answer is 7. Has nothing to do with species, just the mind making different intuitive leaps. Since that's the BASIS of riddles in the first place (either having fun testing your mind, or hiding fairly logical answers behind nonsense thrown in to confuse you), not understanding the problem. Rojohen even got there in a strange, not quite logical way, but his brain made the leap on its own. Some people just 'get' the answer, some picture things or go through a process, and for some it might as well have been written in Greek.

I got the gist of it fairly quickly, although did take a minute to think about it. You can take the guessing and unpredictability out of it, as these people are all 'perfect logicians' and would wait until the math was perfect in order to jump to the conclusion...

 

[Shatnertage]

Considering that I thought this thread was going to be someone bitching about how stupid their co-workers are, this is actually kind of nice.

 

[Ha'kiv]

You're clearly wrong, because several people got to the answer right away (or with just a little thought), so there's a problem with your analysis...

Peoples' minds work differently. One person might look at a math problem all day and struggle, one might just glance at it and see that the answer is 7. Has nothing to do with species, just the mind making different intuitive leaps. Since that's the BASIS of riddles in the first place (either having fun testing your mind, or hiding fairly logical answers behind nonsense thrown in to confuse you), not understanding the problem. Rojohen even got there in a strange, not quite logical way, but his brain made the leap on its own. Some people just 'get' the answer, some picture things or go through a process, and for some it might as well have been written in Greek.

I got the gist of it fairly quickly, although did take a minute to think about it. You can take the guessing and unpredictability out of it, as these people are all 'perfect logicians' and would wait until the math was perfect in order to jump to the conclusion...

The only person who has successfully solved and explained this was Emilia, and you cannot know if she is not familiar with such riddles. Saying "well this is easy" while missing the very point of the riddle, then claiming you can solve the actual riddle with the same thought, is - to say the least - ridiculous.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I'll make out with the Guru. Then I'll see my own eyes reflected in hers in the throes of passion, and known I have dark and sexy brown eyes. I'll sail away on day 2. (Well, maybe 3 if she is playing difficult.)

 

[Gryffindorian]

Easy. The blue-eyed people all left on a Tuesday. The rest of them got killed by the Smoke Monster.

 

[RoJoHen]

You're clearly wrong, because several people got to the answer right away (or with just a little thought), so there's a problem with your analysis...

Peoples' minds work differently. One person might look at a math problem all day and struggle, one might just glance at it and see that the answer is 7. Has nothing to do with species, just the mind making different intuitive leaps. Since that's the BASIS of riddles in the first place (either having fun testing your mind, or hiding fairly logical answers behind nonsense thrown in to confuse you), not understanding the problem. Rojohen even got there in a strange, not quite logical way, but his brain made the leap on its own. Some people just 'get' the answer, some picture things or go through a process, and for some it might as well have been written in Greek.

I got the gist of it fairly quickly, although did take a minute to think about it. You can take the guessing and unpredictability out of it, as these people are all 'perfect logicians' and would wait until the math was perfect in order to jump to the conclusion...

The only person who has successfully solved and explained this was Emilia, and you cannot know if she is not familiar with such riddles. Saying "well this is easy" while missing the very point of the riddle, then claiming you can solve the actual riddle with the same thought, is - to say the least - ridiculous.

So far, all you've managed to tell me is that I'm doing it wrong without being able to tell me why. What is the point of the riddle that I am missing? I misread one line, and you keep telling me that it changes things, but you won't explain why you think so. Frankly, you're coming across as someone who is just disgruntled that he couldn't figure out the answer.

I didn't just pull a number out of my ass. I used a process, and I got the correct answer. Just because you don't like it or don't understand it doesn't make it wrong. Sometimes there is more than one way to arrive at the same answer.

These kinds of logic problems have always come naturally to me. I'm not saying I use the most logical processes to solve them, but that doesn't mean I don't understand what I'm doing. If I could explain it better, I would. Just because someone is good at something doesn't mean they'd good at teaching it to others.

 

[Mr Silver]

Easy. The blue-eyed people all left on a Tuesday. The rest of them got killed by the Smoke Monster.

This!

 

[Ha'kiv]

RoJoHen, have you not been reading what I've written? While it is perfectly possible for you to come to the same result, the process could not have been correct because you were misinformed. I apologize for doing so much assuming. Again I ask you to explain this for a 3blue-3brown situation.

*However if you prefer not to or are not in the mood, that's quite alright too. I do apologize if I appeared rude in any way, it wasn't my intention.

 

[Mr Silver]

This is getting a bit anal and heated for discussion on a lame logic puzzle, is it not?