Scotland to leave the UK?

[Kegg]

It sounds like the end result of this line of thinking would be a return to feudalism,

Wait, what?

Listen. I live in a republican democracy. It's a small republic, obviously, less than Manhattan's population. But is in no sense a feudal state. Democracies do not need to be continent spanning to work.

Reasonably self-sustaining is kind of vague--

The idea a country needs to be self-sustaining may have something to do with the fact America trades with itself a lot.

Actually, a lot of small countries trade internationally.

Really, if Lichtenstein can be an independent state a reasonable theoretical case can be made for any of America's fifty states or Scotland.

No, but unless you have 100% agreement to secede in that State, you'll have people who will have to be relocated or give up their citizenship in any case.

Or dual citizenship, yes. We discussed that a couple of times. I'm pretty sure I mentioned the British Loyalists, many of whom relocated to Canada after America became independent.

The Anglo-Irish and Anglo-Indian populations saw something of a dip in the aftermath of the independence of both of those countries, too.

That's a difficulty in becoming independent, but it's not the same thing as an obstacle that should absolutely prevent independence.

Not you. I may disagree with you on this issue, but you can formulate an argument and gave me something interesting to discuss for a while there. No, I'm referring to someone whose main purpose in this thread seems to have been to say inflammatory nationalist rubbish.

I consider my rhetoric more flammatory than inflammatory, partly because I don't like how that word means two contradictory things.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

It would be a shame about the Union flag if it did happen. But as of now, I don't think it really will

The Union Flag or flag of the European Union? If the former, it survived the partition of Ireland.

All this is much of a muchness. Just give the Scots a referendum, no force it on them and then either wave them goodbye or tell them to STFU and get back to spending English tax money, like the rest of us in the lesser constituent countries of the UK.

 

[RJDiogenes]

It sounds like the end result of this line of thinking would be a return to feudalism, which isn't a very appealing thought.

You have some really, um, interesting ideas about systems of Govt other than the USA.

Thank you, I guess. But you'll have to be more specific, since I don't recall discussing any lately.

No, but unless you have 100% agreement to secede in that State, you'll have people who will have to be relocated or give up their citizenship in any case.

As I've said, repeatedly, if the motion to secede (or what ever change in a Constitution is being proposed) is carried by the requisiite number of properly enrolled eligible voters, in a properly run free and fair ballot - tough luck. That's democracy in action.

Obviously. I don't see how that relates to the comment you quoted, however.

Hw many referenda have you voted in, since enrolling to vote?

Too many to count. Why do you ask?

It sounds like the end result of this line of thinking would be a return to feudalism,

Wait, what?

Listen. I live in a republican democracy. It's a small republic, obviously, less than Manhattan's population. But is in no sense a feudal state. Democracies do not need to be continent spanning to work.

Sean mentioned individual cities seceding from their country, in response to a comment I made about the secession of military compounds and hippie communes. A world full of those would be the equivalent of feudalism; until they started conquering each other, anyway.

Reasonably self-sustaining is kind of vague--

The idea a country needs to be self-sustaining may have something to do with the fact America trades with itself a lot.

Actually, a lot of small countries trade internationally.

Really, if Lichtenstein can be an independent state a reasonable theoretical case can be made for any of America's fifty states or Scotland.

No doubt Scotland could survive as an independent nation, and there are probably some States who could do okay. But, again, once you get down to the level of cities or god's little acre, it's going to be a problem. It's not impossible. Andorra manages. But a lot of other larger countries exist in abject poverty.

Or dual citizenship, yes. We discussed that a couple of times. I'm pretty sure I mentioned the British Loyalists, many of whom relocated to Canada after America became independent.

Sure, dual citizenship is a possibility. But you're still going to have people who reside in a new country that they didn't want. The point is, whether secession succeeds or fails, there are going to be a whole bunch of unhappy people.

That's a difficulty in becoming independent, but it's not the same thing as an obstacle that should absolutely prevent independence.

And, once again, I never said it was. I'm just talking about what it might be like if it actually happened-- it seems a lot of people are hostile to the idea that it might not be a perfect situation.

 

[Sean Aaron]

No doubt Scotland could survive as an independent nation, and there are probably some States who could do okay. But, again, once you get down to the level of cities or god's little acre, it's going to be a problem. It's not impossible. Andorra manages. But a lot of other larger countries exist in abject poverty.

Well the Slovaks are objectively worse off monetarily following the split (or they were anyway, I haven't checked lately), but I think not being under the economic shadow of the Czechs outweighed that.

I fully expect that I'd pay higher taxes in an Independent Scotland; not having Trident or new aircraft carriers to pay for and not having budgetary, immigration and foreign policy decisions made in London impact me would be sufficient compensation.

If a land-locked newly-independent state couldn't function on its own then I'd agree, that would have been poorly thought-out, but sometimes people need to learn things the hard way.

Sure, dual citizenship is a possibility. But you're still going to have people who reside in a new country that they didn't want. The point is, whether secession succeeds or fails, there are going to be a whole bunch of unhappy people.

And they'll likely have two choices: stay and lump it or leave. Sucks, but then big changes like that will necessarily have some fallout.

 

[RJDiogenes]

If a land-locked newly-independent state couldn't function on its own then I'd agree, that would have been poorly thought-out, but sometimes people need to learn things the hard way.

That's exactly what I was thinking. A few years down the road, this new country may find that independence is not sustainable and seek to partner up again, which would add another interesting dimension. Going back to the Alaska example, they could theoretically seek Statehood again, or join either Canada or Russia.

And they'll likely have two choices: stay and lump it or leave. Sucks, but then big changes like that will necessarily have some fallout.

Exactly. There could be major repercussions to something like this-- including violence if the disenfranchised faction is not happy with the outcome.

 

[Sean Aaron]

There could be major repercussions to something like this-- including violence if the disenfranchised faction is not happy with the outcome.

Well if the Orange Order did decide to riot, I personally would be happy to see them get a good kicking.

 

[{ Emilia }]

This discussion is getting boring and I'm getting a bit tired of beating my head against a brick wall.

Yep, and we still don't know what to do with Scotland. I'm very tempted to try to sell it to China, just to see what will happen next.

That's exactly what a Flemish friend of mine keeps suggesting regarding the french-speaking part of Belgium. Apparently nobody wants them, though.

 

[Shaytan]

This discussion is getting boring and I'm getting a bit tired of beating my head against a brick wall.

Yep, and we still don't know what to do with Scotland. I'm very tempted to try to sell it to China, just to see what will happen next.

That's exactly what a Flemish friend of mine keeps suggesting regarding the french-speaking part of Belgium. Apparently nobody wants them, though.

Flemish (not all of them of course) are sometimes a little stupid...and rude too.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Flemish (not all of them of course) are sometimes a little stupid...and rude too.

He's neither of the two, though. Most polite person I know and very reasonable.
He just happens to think that Wallonia sucks.

 

[Shaytan]

Flemish (not all of them of course) are sometimes a little stupid...and rude too.

He's neither of the two, though. Most polite person I know and very reasonable.
He just happens to think that Wallonia sucks.

Walloons are extremely friendly and Flemish often forget that if now they're economically dominant in Belgium, that was not always the case. On the other hand, as a francophone, I had some strange experiences with Flemish people who were apparently expecting me to be fluent in Flemish.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Walloons are extremely friendly and Flemish often forget that if now they're economically dominant in Belgium, that was not always the case.

That's what I keep telling him.

On the other hand, as a francophone, I had some strange experiences with Flemish people who were apparently expecting me to be fluent in Flemish.

Well, that's one of the issues. In Flemish schools all kids have to learn French for 8 years, every sign or official document is presented in all 3 official languages of the country (French, (Flemish) Dutch and German).
In the French part most kids learn Dutch for 2 years and almost everything is only in French. It's a lack of respect for the other half of Belgium and I can see why it pisses them off. So they get the feeling that Wallonia not only sucks money from Flanders but also shows no respect in return. I'm not saying they're right but it's easy to see how this developed.

Even the Royal family sucks at speaking Dutch.

 

[Deckerd]

It's called Flemish because of the amount of flem produced trying to speak it.

 

[{ Emilia }]

It's called Flemish because of the amount of flem produced trying to speak it.

The Flemish version of Dutch actually doesn't have those weird coughing sounds and other crazy things. Well, it does but it's not even remotely comparable to the sound of Dutch that's spoken in the Netherlands.

(It still sounds pretty funny, though.)

 

[Deckerd]

It was a joke.

 

[Shaytan]

In the French part most kids learn Dutch for 2 years and almost everything is only in French. It's a lack of respect for the other half of Belgium and I can see why it pisses them off. So they get the feeling that Wallonia not only sucks money from Flanders but also shows no respect in return. I'm not saying they're right but it's easy to see how this developed.

Even the Royal family sucks at speaking Dutch.

It's not a lack of respect but there are languages that are more important to learn in today's world than Flemish. If I were Belgium and I had to chose between Flemish, English, Spanish or even German, you can be sure that Flemish wouldn't be my priority because at an international level, it's irrelevant.

 

[{ Emilia }]

It was a joke.

I smiled a bit. Thanks for trying.

 

[Deckerd]

That's okay. I'm sure everyone else got it.

 

[{ Emilia }]

It's not a lack of respect but there are languages that are more important to learn in today's world than Flemish. If I were Belgium and I had to chose between Flemish, English, Spanish or even German, you can be sure that Flemish wouldn't be my priority because at an international level, it's irrelevant.

Oh, no doubt it's "more important" to know English. But they're living in the same country and they have to understand each other. Is why Italian, French and German are learned in all parts of Switzerland for example.
So what are you suggesting? Should Belgium just ignore their own languages and switch to English because Dutch and French are meaningless in our world?

 

[{ Emilia }]

That's okay. I'm sure everyone else got it.

Oh, I got it. It was just a bit of a cheap shot and it simply didn't apply to Flemish Dutch so it was close to "utterly bad".
I did thank you for trying, though!

 

[Deckerd]

I don't think you did but never mind. Better luck next time.