Literature
- Thread starter TerokNor
- Start date
It makes sense in context given that the previous sentences spoken by Huck are:
"Quick-hurry! I'll hunt the labboard side, you hunt the stabboard. You start at the raft, and -"
On reflection, the depiction of Jim does come across as very patronising if not quite racist. Certainly, this illustration doesn't help.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...rd. You start at the raft, and------"&f=false
Ah yes, as I suspected, the old "you need to have a penis to be able to write literature of value" belief.
Makes you realize why so many women (including the Brontes and George Eliot) wrote under assumed male pen-names. I guess things haven't changed that much in 160 years after all.
Ah yes, as I suspected, the old "you need to have a penis to be able to write literature of value" belief.
Makes you realize why so many women (including the Brontes and George Eliot) wrote under assumed male pen-names. I guess things haven't changed that much in 160 years after all.
15-year old boys in the 1970's were expected to behave like that to demonstrate that they weren't queer. I don't think the word "metrosexual" was coined until a lot later. Times have moved on.
Thanks for the other tips.
*confused stare at Huck Finn sentences* I think I do not want to read that book...
I thought "A red badge of courage" had already hard to understand slang, but it is at least better to understand then that.
TerokNor
I find it helps to imagine the characters acting out the scene in my head. It also helps to recognise that labboard and stabboard are the dialect phonetic spellings of larboard (an archaic name for port or left) and starboard (right).
Anyway, I don't recommend you read Feersum Endjinn by Iain Banks.
Uhm...hmm..do I understand it right, that the Artful Dodger ends up in prison? Or did they already had those reformatory schools, or how they were called, to the time the book plays?
How the boys written, with the English he uses, he is pretty hard to understand. Does he make fun out of standing in court for theft?
TerokNor
How the boys written, with the English he uses, he is pretty hard to understand. Does he make fun out of standing in court for theft?
TerokNor
Well I have found the answer to my last question in the previous post, but I have another question, that I just cannot find an answer too and I hope this time maybe some smart person could sort of translate it? Would be great... and sorry for pestering you with my questions.
I don´t get this bit of conversation:
"What´ll Fagin say?" inquired the Dodger, taking advantage of the next interval of breathlessness on the part of his friend to propound the question.
"What?" repeated Charley Bates.
"Ah, what?" said the Dodger.
"Why, what should he say?" inquired Charley, stopping rather suddenly in his merriment; for the Dodger´s manner was impressive. "What should he say?"
Mr Dawkins whistles for a couple of minutes; then taking off his hat scratched his head, and nodded thrice.
"What do you mean?" said Charley.
"Toor rul lol loo, gammon and spinnage, the frog he wouldn´t, and high cockolorum," said the Dodger, with a slight sneer on his intellectual countenance.
This was explanatory, but not satisfactory. Master Bates felt it so, and again said, "What do you mean?"
The Dodger made no reply; but putting his hat on again, and gathering the skirts of his long-tailed coat under his arm, thrust his tongue into his cheek, slapped the bridge of his nose some half-dozen times in a familiar but expressive manner, and turning on his heel, slunk down the court. Master Bates followed, with a thoughtful countenance.
Hmm... ????? Is nodding thrice some sort of signal?
And the same for putting the tongue in the cheek and slapping the bridge of the nose? What does he do that for and what does it mean? Does it has a meaning at all or does the boy just has some sort of...tick...quirk...whatever the word is? After all if its "familiar" he seems to slap his nose more often.
And what does this mean? Toor rul lol loo, gammon and spinnage, the frog he wouldn´t, and high cockolorum.
Don´t understand this dialoge. I mean I could conclude that is might be something in the line of "Fagin won´t be happy, that we come back without Oliver", but is that the meaning?
Thanks!
TerokNor
I don´t get this bit of conversation:
"What´ll Fagin say?" inquired the Dodger, taking advantage of the next interval of breathlessness on the part of his friend to propound the question.
"What?" repeated Charley Bates.
"Ah, what?" said the Dodger.
"Why, what should he say?" inquired Charley, stopping rather suddenly in his merriment; for the Dodger´s manner was impressive. "What should he say?"
Mr Dawkins whistles for a couple of minutes; then taking off his hat scratched his head, and nodded thrice.
"What do you mean?" said Charley.
"Toor rul lol loo, gammon and spinnage, the frog he wouldn´t, and high cockolorum," said the Dodger, with a slight sneer on his intellectual countenance.
This was explanatory, but not satisfactory. Master Bates felt it so, and again said, "What do you mean?"
The Dodger made no reply; but putting his hat on again, and gathering the skirts of his long-tailed coat under his arm, thrust his tongue into his cheek, slapped the bridge of his nose some half-dozen times in a familiar but expressive manner, and turning on his heel, slunk down the court. Master Bates followed, with a thoughtful countenance.
Hmm... ????? Is nodding thrice some sort of signal?
And the same for putting the tongue in the cheek and slapping the bridge of the nose? What does he do that for and what does it mean? Does it has a meaning at all or does the boy just has some sort of...tick...quirk...whatever the word is? After all if its "familiar" he seems to slap his nose more often.
And what does this mean? Toor rul lol loo, gammon and spinnage, the frog he wouldn´t, and high cockolorum.
Don´t understand this dialoge. I mean I could conclude that is might be something in the line of "Fagin won´t be happy, that we come back without Oliver", but is that the meaning?
Thanks!
TerokNor
TerokNor I just found this thread and am sorry, it has been a long time since I read Dicken's "Oliver Twist", I'd have to study it a bit to get the translation of Cockney English to you, and then I might miss some of the slang. Cockney is it's own dialect, just as the quotes from "Huckleberry Finn."
But I want to add a title to your list. It is a small novel, an American classic I was saddened to see not listed.
Try "The Old Man and the Sea" by Ernest Hemingway, It is a very easy read but a deep study of man's ability to overcome hardship and to finish a task.
If you like reading plays, read "Death of a Salesman" by Arthur Miller as well.
Good luck to you. This is a very admirable way to improve you English as well as your general education. I wish my students were as motivated.
But I want to add a title to your list. It is a small novel, an American classic I was saddened to see not listed.
Try "The Old Man and the Sea" by Ernest Hemingway, It is a very easy read but a deep study of man's ability to overcome hardship and to finish a task.
If you like reading plays, read "Death of a Salesman" by Arthur Miller as well.
Good luck to you. This is a very admirable way to improve you English as well as your general education. I wish my students were as motivated.
Thanks for the tip ancientone51! 
I will keep that in mind, though first I have to get through all the english books I have here now. Can only take ages.... especially when I come across parts I don´t understand and bite myself into them....though I have to admit I jump over other parts that I deem quite boring.
As for motivation, besides wanting to improve English, it comes with the liking of a character. Like for me in Trek that would be Damar, and in the books I am reading at the moment its Alcotts Dan and Dickens Dodger. I want to understand the psychology behind these characters so I read or watch everything that includes them or the time and society they would have lived in, if they would have been real, that I can get my hands on and analyse it
TerokNor
I will keep that in mind, though first I have to get through all the english books I have here now. Can only take ages.... especially when I come across parts I don´t understand and bite myself into them....though I have to admit I jump over other parts that I deem quite boring.As for motivation, besides wanting to improve English, it comes with the liking of a character. Like for me in Trek that would be Damar, and in the books I am reading at the moment its Alcotts Dan and Dickens Dodger. I want to understand the psychology behind these characters so I read or watch everything that includes them or the time and society they would have lived in, if they would have been real, that I can get my hands on and analyse it
TerokNor
The Dodger doesn't know what Fagin will do, either, but he won't let on to Charley. The "high cockalorum" talk is just nonsense to sound mysterious and bluff Charley. All the nodding and rubbing the nose doesn't mean anything, it's just distracting stuff the Dodger does because he doesn't really have an answer.
--Justin
"Toor rul lol loo," "gammon and spinnage" and "the frog he would" are all fragments of song lyrics or rhymes, strung together in nonsense fashion, and "high cockolorum" may have been the name of a children's game, here also used as nonsense. As J.T.B. explained, all of The Dodger's words and actions are making a show of answering, so that a boy who prides himself on knowing what's going on won't have to admit outwardly that he doesn't know.
Ahhhhh, thank you both very much!
Recently had another "Aha-moment" concerning the name, though it might be obvious to an english speaker. *L* Was looking up what my favourite bird (die Dohle) is called in English, and it is a jackdaw. Now smart Dickens. Jack Dawkins, kin to jackdaw. And as jackdaws belong to the corvidae family of birds they have all the prejudices that come along with it... dark, unlucky, thiefing etc. But also good in surviving.
Well and Jack (John)... that confused me first time too why sometimes he was written as Jack and other times a John, till I found out Jack is the pet form of John... and also Jack after this Jack Sheppard guy (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Sheppard). Does sound a lot like the Artful Dodger, as with dodging responsibility and such and being by no means stupid in that regard.
Now I think Dickens pictured the Dodger with black or at least very dark hair, but with bright eyes, much like the jackdaws. Then his describtion of little, sharp, ugly eyes does fit well, if you don´t find those bird beautiful and lived in a time where those prejudices were still a lot believed. Though I personally think they are very beautiful, especially because of those bright eyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackdaw).
And that he is somewhat smallish compared to his age of 11/ 12 years probably is to show the bad growing up conditions, as malnutrition does lead to children not growing well... and the bow-legs...Rachitis? Actually for the movies they should choose for Dodger and Oliver boys, where the Dodger is smaller than Oliver and not the other way around, shouldn´t they? Hmm, well, but that they don´t is probably, because if Olivers smaller, than his innocence is more visible.
TerokNor
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^Well reasoned. Were you a student in my class I'd have to give you an A on that interpretation. Well thought out, especially in a second language.
*L* Well, thank you! That would have been a first-timer then, remembring my grades in English class back during my school days (D/F).
Look
while I am not a very good drawer, still...somehow like this I would picture him then.http://www.img-box.de/100067/
TerokNor
I just finished Leroux´s Phantom of the Opera. Also know the movie from 2004 with G. Butler and have seen the musical (though 15 or so years ago).
I am quite fascinated by the book- phantom, but also by the movie- phantom... interessting character. But than I like troubled characters anyway *L*. While the phantom is a genious, he certainly seems emotinally like a very young child in many scenes. Love the last scene we see him in, when he is speaking to the Daroga and telling him about the kiss on his forhead he received from Christine and how they cried together for "poor, unhappy Erik"... certainly filled me with pitty for the guy, even when he murdered.
If you have read the book and/ or seen the movie, how would you anylyse the phantoms personality?
TerokNor
I am quite fascinated by the book- phantom, but also by the movie- phantom... interessting character. But than I like troubled characters anyway *L*. While the phantom is a genious, he certainly seems emotinally like a very young child in many scenes. Love the last scene we see him in, when he is speaking to the Daroga and telling him about the kiss on his forhead he received from Christine and how they cried together for "poor, unhappy Erik"... certainly filled me with pitty for the guy, even when he murdered.
If you have read the book and/ or seen the movie, how would you anylyse the phantoms personality?
TerokNor
Moll Flanders, Clarissa and Pamela are some of the earliest long forms or novels, dating from the early 1700s. You might want start at the beginning. If you'd like to check out the first gothic novels check out The Castle of Otranto and The Mysteries of Udolpho from the later 1700s. Just a few suggestions from my Eng Lit degree back in the 1980s!
A bit off-topic, but I watched Red Cliff the other day and since then, I've been thinking about reading Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Has anyone read it? Worth the time?
EDIT: sod it, just decided to go for it... ordered the Moss Roberts unabridged translations.
Has anyone read it? Worth the time?
EDIT: sod it, just decided to go for it... ordered the Moss Roberts unabridged translations.
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Dune, 1984, To Kill a Mockingbird, and Animal Farm are some of the best English stories around IMHO.
