Questions on canon

[Ratpelt]

A discussion I had with a friend recently. Let's hear your thoughts.

How far do you think intended character development should be considered canon if it is never definitively explored in a canonical medium?

Obviously expanded universe stuff can't be considered canon, but when it comes to story elements that were developed with the intention of revisting them, do you believe that their intended conclusions should be accepted as canon?

For example:

Data's "death" followed by the clue that his consciousness and memories had been successfully transferred to B-4. Should it be assumed that the intended development of B-4 into a reincarnation of Data became a reality in the core universe?

Ensign Sito's rescue from the Cardassian prison. The last we know of Sito's fate in a canonical medium is that she is missing presumed KIA, but the intention was to develop a DS9 storyline dealing with her rescue, and though this never came to pass, Michael and Denise Okuda's Sito Jaxa character biography states that she was rescued.

 

[Sci]

If it didn't happen in the canon, then it's not canonical. It's that simple.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means that new Star Trek stories can take opposite approaches to whether or not it did happen and still be equally valid and equally consistent with the canon.

 

[Ratpelt]

If it didn't happen in the canon, then it's not canonical. It's that simple.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means that new Star Trek stories can take opposite approaches to whether or not it did happen and still be equally valid and equally consistent with the canon.

Good answer.

 

[Greg Cox]

When I hear the word "canon," I reach for my phaser . . . .

 

[toughlittleship]

I think only the episodes and movies are canon (and I don't think you can't pick and chose simply if you don't like the source) but novels are licensed by CBS to Pocket Books so they obviously still matter.

Also, I've always personally thought bringing back Sito would completely gut the ending of "Lower Decks", so I'm glad DS9 didn't go down that route. Either confirm she was killed or leave her fate ambiguous like the episode. Anyway, the return of Sito inspired "Hard Time", a fantastic episode.

 

[F. King Daniel]

At least two Star Trek films have been written that were never produced - Star Trek: The Academy Years (cancelled in favour of STVI) and Star Trek: The Beginning (cancelled in favour of STXI). They were both very much intended at some point to be continuations of the Trek saga. But should Cadet Spock mind-melding with Cadet Kirk, giving him the answers to an exam he didn't prepare for, or an Earth/Romulan "war" in the form of a week-long battle in Earth orbit be considered canon? No. Various assumptions made when they were written have already been invalidated by subsequent writers who have their own ideas about the universe (in the Academy Years film, George Kirk was a test pilot who went missing testing the first dilithium-powered warp ship)

What about tidbits like Khan's son, cut from STII? Or Saavik's pregnancy in STIV? Or Nero's stay on Rura Penthe in STXI? They're certainly all interesting possibilities, but that's all they are. Ditto all the other unrealized Trek plans.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Wasn't Rura Penthe actually mentioned onscreen in ST XI?

 

[Ratpelt]

I think only the episodes and movies are canon (and I don't think you can't pick and chose simply if you don't like the source) but novels are licensed by CBS to Pocket Books so they obviously still matter.

Also, I've always personally thought bringing back Sito would completely gut the ending of "Lower Decks", so I'm glad DS9 didn't go down that route. Either confirm she was killed or leave her fate ambiguous like the episode. Anyway, the return of Sito inspired "Hard Time", a fantastic episode.

I agree with this. Although on a personal level I would like to be able to discount Generations and Nemesis! I'll never understand what led them to kill off the two best characters from the TOS and TNG eras.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^ Wasn't Rura Penthe actually mentioned onscreen in ST XI?

There was mention of a distress call from "a Klingon prison planet", but that's all. Nothing to say that Nero was an inmate, or that his papers were found or that was interrogated or any of the other things seen in the deleted scenes.

 

[Sci]

I think only the episodes and movies are canon (and I don't think you can't pick and chose simply if you don't like the source) but novels are licensed by CBS to Pocket Books so they obviously still matter.

Also, I've always personally thought bringing back Sito would completely gut the ending of "Lower Decks", so I'm glad DS9 didn't go down that route. Either confirm she was killed or leave her fate ambiguous like the episode. Anyway, the return of Sito inspired "Hard Time", a fantastic episode.

I agree with this. Although on a personal level I would like to be able to discount Generations and Nemesis! I'll never understand what led them to kill off the two best characters from the TOS and TNG eras.

The same thing that led Sir Thomas Mallory to kill off King Arthur or Shakespeare to kill Prince Hamlet: Bringing a character to a dramatic and heroic conclusion makes for a good story.

 

[Ratpelt]

I think only the episodes and movies are canon (and I don't think you can't pick and chose simply if you don't like the source) but novels are licensed by CBS to Pocket Books so they obviously still matter.

Also, I've always personally thought bringing back Sito would completely gut the ending of "Lower Decks", so I'm glad DS9 didn't go down that route. Either confirm she was killed or leave her fate ambiguous like the episode. Anyway, the return of Sito inspired "Hard Time", a fantastic episode.

I agree with this. Although on a personal level I would like to be able to discount Generations and Nemesis! I'll never understand what led them to kill off the two best characters from the TOS and TNG eras.

The same thing that led Sir Thomas Mallory to kill off King Arthur or Shakespeare to kill Prince Hamlet: Bringing a character to a dramatic and heroic conclusion makes for a good story.

I agree with the concept, but in practice Generations sucked ass.

 

[The Wormhole]

Data's "death" followed by the clue that his consciousness and memories had been successfully transferred to B-4. Should it be assumed that the intended development of B-4 into a reincarnation of Data became a reality in the core universe?

Ensign Sito's rescue from the Cardassian prison. The last we know of Sito's fate in a canonical medium is that she is missing presumed KIA, but the intention was to develop a DS9 storyline dealing with her rescue, and though this never came to pass, Michael and Denise Okuda's Sito Jaxa character biography states that she was rescued.

According to canon:
Data is dead, though his memories exist within B-4.
Sito Jaxa is dead.

 

[Distorted Humor]

The same thing that led Sir Thomas Mallory to kill off King Arthur or Shakespeare to kill Prince Hamlet: Bringing a character to a dramatic and heroic conclusion makes for a good story.

But Hamlet died in a heroic duel from Laertes poisoned blade, as with kirk, they dropped a bridge on him....

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Wasn't Rura Penthe actually mentioned onscreen in ST XI?

There was mention of a distress call from "a Klingon prison planet", but that's all. Nothing to say that Nero was an inmate

I think we can infer that he was.

Anyone who knows what Rura Penthe is, knows that it *is* the Klingon prison planet; those who don't know, won't care. We can fill in the blanks.

I mean, Nero would have no reason to be near the place if he wasn't an inmate, would he?

 

[Sci]

The same thing that led Sir Thomas Mallory to kill off King Arthur or Shakespeare to kill Prince Hamlet: Bringing a character to a dramatic and heroic conclusion makes for a good story.

But Hamlet died in a heroic duel from Laertes poisoned blade, as with kirk, they dropped a bridge on him....

But the quality of the execution is not the same thing as the creative motivation for the idea of killing Kirk, which is what I was addressing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^ Wasn't Rura Penthe actually mentioned onscreen in ST XI?

There was mention of a distress call from "a Klingon prison planet", but that's all. Nothing to say that Nero was an inmate

I think we can infer that he was.

Anyone who knows what Rura Penthe is, knows that it *is* the Klingon prison planet; those who don't know, won't care. We can fill in the blanks.

I mean, Nero would have no reason to be near the place if he wasn't an inmate, would he?

Inferring isn't canon. Which is the whole point. Excluding the non-canon deleted scenes (or the spin-off "Star Trek: Nero" comic series), Nero could have been attacking a prison planet for any reason. Getting supplies, causing a distraction, anything.

Ditto Saavik's being half-Romulan. The scene was cut, it's up to the viewer to include it (and/or her expanded backstory in the novels) or not. But it's not canon.

 

[Distorted Humor]

The same thing that led Sir Thomas Mallory to kill off King Arthur or Shakespeare to kill Prince Hamlet: Bringing a character to a dramatic and heroic conclusion makes for a good story.

But Hamlet died in a heroic duel from Laertes poisoned blade, as with kirk, they dropped a bridge on him....

But the quality of the execution is not the same thing as the creative motivation for the idea of killing Kirk, which is what I was addressing.

Fair enough

 

[Yevetha]

I wonder what you guys think about this.

Should really high quality video games which are played out in the Trek universe become canon?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Nope. I loved the Elite Force games, but a running massacre through Space Station K7, killing hundreds in order to capture and interrogate a Ferengi merchant really doesn't fit with the Trek ethos.

 

[Yevetha]

" and interrogate a Ferengi merchant really doesn't fit with the Trek ethos."

We had seen nastier stuff In The Pale Moonlight, much more nastier.

" but a running massacre through Space Station K7, killing hundreds in order to capture"

Like in Star Wars these details do not have to be canon, just the story and the characters.