River-Doctor chronology question

[propita]

Watching Doctor Who Rewind. The Doctor told Amy that he and River always meet in the wrong order. Rover stated at some episode that they meet reversed, his future is her passed.

Don't know the titles by heart, but after the Weeping Angels, when River says they'll meet when the Pandorica opens, it's already her past, so it's not a linear reversal, right?

I need a schematic of their meetings, with a timeline, even if it's approximate. Can someone with more knowledge do that?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Someone posted one, but I'm too lazy to find it. It appears that this season has been in direct reverse, but who knows about overall.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

The two are always hinting at so much more than we'll ever actually see, so who knows if they meet in exact opposite order to each other.

There could be some randomness to it.

 

[Neroon]

So much of this depends upon individual interpretation.

The three that I have seen are:

http://seriable.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/river_song_doctor_timeline1.jpg

http://www.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/features/river-songs-diary/

http://daleksinmanhattan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Timeline3.png

 

[propita]

That last timeline helps, even if not current to this season. But that's easy to fill in. So River knew only the 11th Doctor, and that's why the 10th Doctor appeared so "young" to her.

The 1100 yo Doctor said he was tired of running, so that's sometime in this 200 years, which is also when they first meet (unless she actually IS in the astronaut suit, which is when he's 1100 yo).


It's still confusing.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think it'll get less confusing, but it'll always be a bit confusing. It's the nature of the story (plus the change in Doctors).

 

[The Wormhole]

Logically speaking, River must have also met other Doctors, like the 12th or 13th. After all, she knows about regeneration, even recognized it in The Impossible Astronaut. And it helps her statement in the Weeping Angel story where she said she always meets the Doctors out of order, requiring her to keep track in her spotter's guide.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Logically speaking, River must have also met other Doctors, like the 12th or 13th. After all, she knows about regeneration, even recognized it in The Impossible Astronaut. And it helps her statement in the Weeping Angel story where she said she always meets the Doctors out of order, requiring her to keep track in her spotter's guide.

Unless it wasn't actually the Doctor that was assassinated in Utah in 2011, I suspect that the Doctor who gave River her sonic screwdriver and took her to the Singing Towers was the eleventh Doctor just prior to his death. He knew he was going to die, and he knew he still had to give her the sonic. If he was assassinated without giving River the sonic, the timelines of River and the Doctor collapse under the weight of paradox.

The "spotter's guide" I make sense of this way -- the Doctor has given River a guide to all of his pre-Tennant selves, so that she can know not to interact with them so as not to ruin their timelines. I mean, it wouldn't do any good if River met the Camfield Doctor or the Richard E. Grant Doctor, now would it?

 

[YellowSubmarine]

The "spotter's guide" I make sense of this way -- the Doctor has given River a guide to all of his pre-Tennant selves, so that she can know not to interact with them so as not to ruin their timelines. I mean, it wouldn't do any good if River met the Camfield Doctor or the Richard E. Grant Doctor, now would it?

It would be cool if she met one of the old doctors briefly, but he either didn't see her or didn't have time to interact with her and remember her, or she had to run and hide in order to not be seen or cause a paradox.

 

[marillion]

Would love to see her run into the 5th Doctor, give him a knowing wink and watch him turn red-faced with embarrassment...

 

[ClayinCA]

It seems to me that River has to have met the Tenth Doctor at some point before she meets him in the Library. She recognizes that particular face, but does not immediately tumble to the fact the he won't know her. If she'd never seen Ten before, just the mere sight of him would be enough for her to know the she'd be a stranger to him. Even when she starts talking about how young he is, she still doesn't immediately jump straight to "he won't know me." Therefore, the Tenth Doctor's face is one she knows already. Since Eleven appears to be meeting her for only the second time (from his perspective) in "The Time of Angels," I'm not sure how this can be reconciled, but it does seem pretty evident that River already knows Ten when she gets to the Library.

 

[The Wormhole]

It seems to me that River has to have met the Tenth Doctor at some point before she meets him in the Library. She recognizes that particular face, but does not immediately tumble to the fact the he won't know her. If she'd never seen Ten before, just the mere sight of him would be enough for her to know the she'd be a stranger to him. Even when she starts talking about how young he is, she still doesn't immediately jump straight to "he won't know me." Therefore, the Tenth Doctor's face is one she knows already. Since Eleven appears to be meeting her for only the second time (from his perspective) in "The Time of Angels," I'm not sure how this can be reconciled, but it does seem pretty evident that River already knows Ten when she gets to the Library.

Logically, the only way she could have met pre-Smith Doctors is if she tagged along during a multi-Doctor adventure.

 

[starsuperion]

It seems to me that River has to have met the Tenth Doctor at some point before she meets him in the Library. She recognizes that particular face, but does not immediately tumble to the fact the he won't know her. If she'd never seen Ten before, just the mere sight of him would be enough for her to know the she'd be a stranger to him. Even when she starts talking about how young he is, she still doesn't immediately jump straight to "he won't know me." Therefore, the Tenth Doctor's face is one she knows already. Since Eleven appears to be meeting her for only the second time (from his perspective) in "The Time of Angels," I'm not sure how this can be reconciled, but it does seem pretty evident that River already knows Ten when she gets to the Library.

Logically, the only way she could have met pre-Smith Doctors is if she tagged along during a multi-Doctor adventure.

which begs the question if the 50th anniversary special is going to include a multi doctor serial, wherein river is meeting the tenth after the events of the silence in the library and if so, tenth is astonished to see her alive but has to remain silent that he sees her future when she dies..thus she recognises him in the lybrary, but he hadn't met her yet..or just the fact that she heard his name as "the Doctor" in the library was enough to know who he was..not many people referring themselves as simply "the Doctor"

 

[borgboy]

I wondered if there might be more Ten/River stories we haven't seen, that took place after Donna left. Maybe those could be done as audio plays someday.
Do we know for sure that River has met future Doctors past Eleven? I thought she had, but I may be wrong.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Well, she has pictures. However, the scene in the library should have been about three seconds long if that was the first time she met him as 10. She would pick her most recent adventure and, after that point, conclude he's new to her.

It's possible that when 10 went off on his adventure before meeting the Ood so he could die, he stopped by with River, although that doesn't fit 11's reaction when meeting her (which is borderline run away in fear). If they do a multi-Doctor story, it could also make sense. 11 tells her to not say anything because some are before and some are after. But it realistically needs to be a mix of both 10 on his own and a multi-Doctor story in order to be completely coherent.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Since Eleven appears to be meeting her for only the second time (from his perspective) in "The Time of Angels," I'm not sure how this can be reconciled, but it does seem pretty evident that River already knows Ten when she gets to the Library.

I seem to recall that Moffat has said that "The Time of Angels" is not the Doctor's second adventure with River, so unless the eleventh Doctor had an adventure with River while he was taking the TARDIS for a spin around the moon in "The Eleventh Hour" (which is not how that episode plays), the tenth Doctor must have met up with River at some point before his regeneration.

 

[Butters]

What are the odds of River Song series? With the occasional encounter with an increasingly youthful Doctor...

 

[Stevil2001]

Since Eleven appears to be meeting her for only the second time (from his perspective) in "The Time of Angels," I'm not sure how this can be reconciled, but it does seem pretty evident that River already knows Ten when she gets to the Library.

I seem to recall that Moffat has said that "The Time of Angels" is not the Doctor's second adventure with River, so unless the eleventh Doctor had an adventure with River while he was taking the TARDIS for a spin around the moon in "The Eleventh Hour" (which is not how that episode plays), the tenth Doctor must have met up with River at some point before his regeneration.

There's a comment in "The Time of Angels", but I forget exactly what it is, but the Doctor says something like "This always happens." It's small and easy to miss, but Moffat slyly referenced it in his Production Notes column in DWM as an indication they'd met more than once before.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Very cool. That's good enough for me.

 

[DAK]

Just watched that part of the confidential, and what Moffat says is "The Doctor's been dreading his next encounter with River" and "There's only been one major encounter with her to date, in the Library". So I guess those statements could be interpreted either way.