Heavy Metal Magazine and Avatar similarities

[Moodib]

James Cameron is a huge fan of the classic comic magazine and used it as one of his inspirations possibly including from the animated movie which is one of his fave animated movies since he is a fan of animated movies.

There are huge similarities to Moebius, Richard Corben and Bernie Wrightsen are huge especially with Den with the same idea of a man who is weak but sent to another planet to find himself as a new stronger bigger version of himself, finds love on that planet, joins with a band of warriors and fight against a tyrant. There's also Taarna similarities such as sexy but strong-willed half naked female warrior who rides a dragon, some of the landscape and the climax where Neytiri fought Quatrich was a huge homage to that battle scene where Taarna fought the Barbarian king.

Avatar was like one big issue of HM Magazine brought to life.

It's like Cameron brough

 

[Mysterion]

Perhaps so, but if you really want to see a movie that was inspired by the Heavy Metal "feel", look no further than The Fifth Element.

 

[Davros]

Some parts seem inspired by old Yes album covers.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Half naked female warriors are a true rarity in sf/f.

 

[Mysterion]

Half naked female warriors are a true rarity in sf/f.

A sad truth, this.

 

[Moodib]

Ah yes Fifth Element was great, definitely had an HM magazine/HM movie feel to it. But i agree some parts do remind me of Roger Dean and Miyazaki's Castle in The Sky.

Cameron did borrowed from both HM sources (animated movie and Magazine), Castle in The Sky: Laputa, Last of the Mohicans, Man Named Horse, Dune, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (aka Warriors of the Wind), Willow, Star Wars Trilogy, Star Trek 6, Princess Mononoke, Ferngully, Broken Arrow (the 1950 James Stewart movie), Lawrence of Arabia, Dances with Wolves, Wizards, Fantastic Planet, LightYears (aka Gandahar), Starchaser Legend of Orin and Enemy Mine.

 

[Out Of My Vulcan Mind]

Perhaps so, but if you really want to see a movie that was inspired by the Heavy Metal "feel", look no further than The Fifth Element.

No surpise there since Moebius was responsible for much of the early work published in Metal Hurlant and did much of the design work for The Fifth Element.

 

[Agenda]

There are huge similarities to Moebius, Richard Corben and Bernie Wrightsen are huge especially with Den with the same idea of a man who is weak but sent to another planet to find himself as a new stronger bigger version of himself, finds love on that planet, joins with a band of warriors and fight against a tyrant.

Sorry, but this is just reaching. I saw Den long before I saw Avatar, and while there are similarities in the basic concept, otherwise it's completely different. Not to mention that Den itself is based on just about every pulp sword and sorcery story ever written.

I dont know why Cameron always gets lambasted for Avatar yet George Lucas seems to get a free pass on all his "inspirations".

 

[Kegg]

Both Blade Runner and Alien were reportedly quite influenced by Metal Hurlant too. It's a common inspiration to the point of being cliche.

Sorry, but this is just reaching. I saw Den long before I saw Avatar, and while there are similarities in the basic concept, otherwise it's completely different.

This. A number of influences and similarities cropped to mind upon seeing Avatar, but it's very far from Den.

On the other hand,

Fantastic Planet

This did come to mind. Alien race of giant blue people living on a surreal planet who have a conflict with humans, humans, incidentally, having devastated their own world through their folly which is part of why they're here now.

Not saying it's an actual or even likely influence for Cameron but it did cross my mind when watching the movie. But then, the floating hills of Nagrand crossed my mind and I doubt Cameron's played much World of Warcraft.

I dont know why Cameron always gets lambasted for Avatar yet George Lucas seems to get a free pass on all his "inspirations".

Sometimes it feels like there's more people on the internet who've seen Ferngully: The Last Rainforest than have read Dune, the Foundation trilogy, seen Akira Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress or a Flash Gordon serial.

That might be part of it.

 

[Moodib]

What about the Taarna similarities i point out including that climatic battle? even the destruction of the Na'Vi village was a huge homage to HM the movie's city destruction from mutant tyrants.

I believe Cameron did used the same floating mountains, the same floating rock subtance and similar robots from Laputa aka Castle in The Sky by Hayao Miyazaki since he is a Miyazaki fan.

Do you agree that the landscapes, world of pandora, sexy alien chicks that are half naked, warriors, creatures, storyline etc. are out of an issue of HM Magazine aka Metal Hurlant?

Besides Fantastic Planet, Heavy Metal and Ferngully, have you seen any of the movies i mentioned like Last of the Mohicans, Dune, Mononoke, Nausicaa, Castle in The Sky, Lightyears (aka Gandahar), Starchaser Legend of Orin and Willow? Cameron did borrowed from those.

 

[Kegg]

Do you agree that the landscapes, world of pandora, sexy alien chicks that are half naked, warriors, creatures, storyline etc. are out of an issue of HM Magazine aka Metal Hurlant?

I'd agree it's something they do, yeah, and the influence of the work on Ridley Scott's been noted. Pandora seems to owe quite a bit to Cameron's underwater work, real jungles, and the usual conventions of pulp alien life, though - which are older than Metal Hurlant.

Besides Fantastic Planet, Heavy Metal and Ferngully, have you seen any of the movies i mentioned like Last of the Mohicans, Dune, Mononoke, Nausicaa, Castle in The Sky, Lightyears (aka Gandahar), Starchaser Legend of Orin and Willow? Cameron did borrowed from those.

I haven't seen Starchaser Legend of Orin or Last of the Mohicans, but yes, I've seen the other ones. I don't really think Cameron was borrowing from any of the other films mentioned, the comparison seems tangential at best in most cases. Gandahar and Nausicaa have really weird looking planetscapes, but not ones that much resemble Pandora's.

And I really doubt many people have ever stolen from David Lynch's Dune; although the source material's been well pilfered.

 

[KB24]

I think Avatar robbed almost every sf source possible, if that's possible. Off the top of my head, I recall thinking Aliens, Star Wars, Dinotopia, Matrix... Some of it is so obvious it isn't funny. I wrote more examples in detail way back when I reviewed it. Is it saying something that I don't even remember all the ripoffs in Avatar?

http://ithinkthereforeireview.blogspot.com/2010/07/avatar.html

"
It’s not as if Avatar isn’t like anything we’ve ever seen before. Visually, sure, but the idea of people living alternative lives while ‘jacked in’ and preferring the ‘dream’ to the real world is a little Matrix, don’t you think? And the bonding with your extra special bird lizard mount to save the day, climbing perilous cliffs to reach him-well that’s right out of Dinotopia. Some of the vehicles, the amplified mobility suit, and the casting of the wonderful Sigourney Weaver also reminded me a little too much of Aliens. I kept thinking pilot turned Na’vi supporter Trudy’s (an under utilized and unable to branch out Michelle Rodriguez, Resident Evil) plane was just a drop ship from the Nostromo, and I half expected ‘Get away from her you Bitch!’ to make an appearance whenever the AMP lit up. Maybe I watch Aliens too much and picked up on James Horner’s reuse of its score in Patriot Games, too- for his music was again reminiscent of his first collaboration with Cameron.


On a lighter note, I just had to laugh at the idea of an energy field created by all living things that surround us, penetrates us, binds the galaxy together-oh wait, wrong movie! Cuddly natives and their arrows taking down the evil imperial machine- in hindsight, this wasn’t the best way to go for Return of the Jedi, either."

Hee, I guess my title sums it up. I don't know why we pretend this movie is the greatest ever when it clearly has some serious faults, flaws, and story failings.

 

[Kegg]

It’s not as if Avatar isn’t like anything we’ve ever seen before. Visually, sure, but the idea of people living alternative lives while ‘jacked in’ and preferring the ‘dream’ to the real world is a little Matrix, don’t you think?

Yes, because the Matrix was the first time that plot had ever been used. Ever. The Matrix was not an utterly derivative rehash of William Gibson by way of Hong Kong and Hilary Putnam's Brains in a Vat (which in turn, you gaiz, was updating Descartes).

I think another problem about these kinds of criticisms is the assumption that any work slightly earlier than Avatar may have originated the idea Avatar's supposed to have stolen... to put it another way, Matrix never had a lease on that thing to begin with.

It's not that I disagree with the substance of the argument - that Avatar is indeed basically formulaic and derivative genre fare - but the suppositions that posit a ton of other works as apparently more 'original' do not wash at all.

This said:

Some of the vehicles, the amplified mobility suit, and the casting of the wonderful Sigourney Weaver also reminded me a little too much of Aliens.

Aliens is a really obvious but also pretty accurate point of comparison with Avatar. Especially when one realises that Michael Biehn was originally going to play the Colonel Quaritch role, until Cameron felt the film would be too Aliens with that and recast him as... Stephen Lang, who was one of the actors he'd considered for the Biehn role in Aliens.

The entire human end of the movie - the marines, the unscrupulous corporate sleazeball, Sigourney Weaver, the machinery, the high-end weaponry - it's got an Aliens feel, certainly.

 

[KB24]

Good points Klegg.

I agree that other sf pre-Avatar is indeed often a derivative of something else, and unfortunately, it is always the big and flashy thing that makes the idea popular, not the originator. However, when done well and good and properly, we consider this a good thing, a building onto the concept and idea in taking things one step further. Harry Potter for example, nothing new but brought back a lot of magic and wizardy for all. When this is done badly and not only achieves nothing new but backpedals or falls short of earlier strides, it is just a rip off. While I wouldn't call Twilight a rip off, I think it has done just as much harm to the vampire genre as the new found popularity is a good for it. I think Avatar substituted its visual glory at the expense of its intelligent storyline possibilities. How could Avatar be so technologically forward yet be a complete hack in plot and reason?


Should it be all or none one way or the other? Wouldn't that by definition be a complete film? So thus, is Avatar half imperfect? Little side to the topic, but I also found the film very hypocritical. The evil industrialists coming to take over the native minority population. Yet Wes Studi, American Indian, and CCH Pounder, African American, are visually erased via blue cat people CGI. You're making a movie about colonization and oppression yet you can't even show your minority actors? I know for young folks unaware with earlier pulp sf work or history, Avatar may be really touching or inspiring, but again, there is better more complete more original or realistic material available.

I didn't know about Michael Biehn being attached early on. Wow. Even Cameron himself thought Avatar was too Aliens? Hehe. I haven't kept up with the film since my husband watched it last year. At first, he thought he had to have it on blu-ray, but a few months later when I was going to buy it, he said he's rather have another movie instead. Wow, now I don't even remember what. When I was discussing my to buy list again later, he told me not to bother with Avatar at all. Do people still think this was total Oscar robbed or has the luster faded?

 

[Kegg]

However, when done well and good and properly, we consider this a good thing, a building onto the concept and idea in taking things one step further.

Well I don't necessarily think a film or a TV series needs to push the envelope of its genre to be good. (A film that arguably does so would be say, Blade Runner, which can be legitimately regarded as one of the founding works of the cyberpunk genre, actually being released before Neuromancer.)

I think it's perfectly possible to serve up a slapdash dish of genre cliches and make a good movie; James Cameron has I think cited Star Wars as a major inspiration for him, and that film basically fits that bill.

The issue for me is: Do they execute the formula well? The Star Wars prequels, for example, could often feel pretty tired. I don't feel the same was true for Avatar, which I found fluidly paced and thoroughly entertaining.

I mean, yes, I've read planetary romance novels where we visit fantastic cultures and surreal planetscapes. But I've never seen it with that level of special effects, so I did really dig that aspect of the film.

So thus, is Avatar half imperfect?

It's certainly not a perfect film.

Little side to the topic, but I also found the film very hypocritical. The evil industrialists coming to take over the native minority population. Yet Wes Studi, American Indian, and CCH Pounder, African American, are visually erased via blue cat people CGI.

An interesting point here is the Na'vi themselves are mostly played by minority actors - Zoe Saldana, obviously, but IIRC that's also true of all the other prominent speaking parts. But yeah, one criticism I've seen levelled towards the film - and many films which similarily side with the a group against a stronger, typically Western force - is that our perspective character is from the outside, the white man. Kevin Costner in Dances With Wolves, Tom Cruise in The Last Samurai, etc. It would have been more subversive to cast a non-white in that role, I think, but not terribly likely for an American film.

Do people still think this was total Oscar robbed or has the luster faded?

Moon was robbed, damn it. Where's Duncan Jones' Oscar.

But really reactions to the film when it was released were pretty diverse on this forum, and I don't think the contradictions have gone away. Some people hated it, some people liked it, some loved it, others were indfferent - and mostly I think people who felt that way in 2009 feel so in 2011.

I still like it and still consider 2009 - with Moon, Star Trek, District 9 and Avatar - as a banner year for sci-fi film. That may just be me, though.

 

[Agenda]

Grant Morrison complained that the Matrix stole from his work on the Invisibles.

 

[KB24]

True. Star Wars is the master at fluff that is still quality stuff. Even they are killing themselves and their own model with the prequels. Tired? I felt it was like material enough for one movie was agonizingly stretched into 3. Amen Blade Runner!

Avatar I didn't really feel entertained. I kept shouting out what was going to happen next and was spot on. I thought the borrowed sf cliches were too obvious in the coming to be delighted. Perhaps, though, I wasn't the target audience taking the thrill of the visual? I thought some of the wide scope pans and montages of the world were kind of ho hum. It's magical, we get it, move on to the emotional. Then when we got to the emotional, it was predictably weak. Was that just me?

Yes! I would have found a casting reversal to be far more interesting in layering the storytelling, but they went with the commercial instead. Although Sam Worthington wasn't so overwhelming dynamic for me either. Yay Moon. I miss reading books or seeing films that hare simply man versus man, man versus nature, man versus himself.

Nice chat!


Beyond, remember all the flak hitting the fan when 300 took the scoring from Titus without credit? Awkward!