Star Trek Writers Bible
- Thread starter kappie
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Orion Press was well aware of this sort of thing. But he was NOT a fanzine press. He was a rip-off artist.
Again, NOT a fanzine press. Another rip-off artist.
Again, NOT a fanzine press, and still active I believe.
I object to your assertion that fanzine presses contributed to the illegal distribution of scripts, and you've yet to prove otherwise.
Fanzine presses actually had little or no interest in scripts. I had quite a collection, but I never even thought of reproducing them, and I'm unaware of a single fanzine press that engaged in that sort of bootlegging. Dealers, yes. Hucksters, yes. Con artists, yes. But not fanzine presses.
Oh for goodness sake. You are splitting hairs. I called them "small-press fanzine operators" in my first post. The guy I knew in Sydney had a single off-set printer and printed fanzines for sale. That's a small press fanzine operator, whether a bootlegger or not.
Surely anyone who mass produces fanzines for sale to fans is a "fanzine press", whether they call themselves a fanzine press or not. Whether they produce quickie bootleg fanzines on an offset press (and later, photocopiers) to satisfy fans who refuse to pay airmail freight charges (or can't be bothered with mail order), or whether they are publishing carefully-crafted original fanzines, they are fulfilling the same function for the purpose om my original post.
As I said, there were definitely people out there producing bootleg scripts and bibles for their own profit. Lincoln Enterprises made money on one sale, and the bootleggers made all the rest. I listed three venues, all active in the 1980s and early 90s, that I knew of personally. You don't call those guys "fanzine presses". Okay, I could go back and edit my original post to read "bootleggers who mass produced paper material for sale on international hucksters' tables", but it's too long since the post was made, so I can't edit.
Happy now?
You can answer for every small-press fanzine publisher in the world?
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There are substantial differences between fanzine presses and bootleggers, and if you want to call that "splitting hairs," then you really don't know what fanzine presses are.
Sorry, but having published hundreds of zines over the years has given me quite a bit of insight into the process. The bootleggers seek to profit from the work of others, and that's wrong.
It would've been an accurate post had you said that in the beginning, but by equating bootleggers and fanzine presses, you've denigrated myself and a large number of my friends, and frankly I'm insulted that rather than apologize for your poor choice of phrasing that you take a petulant attitude about being corrected over your mistake.
Nope, wouldn't pretend to, either. However, having known literally hundreds of them and thousands of the fan fiction writers from the 70's, 80's and 90's, I think I'm safe in my assertion. It was a rarity that I could find a fellow zine editor, writer or artist who was into collecting scripts. Even fewer were interested in publishing them. For scripts, you had to turn to Lincoln Enterprise, Intergalactic, and convention dealers in general. Fanzine publishers simply didn't deal in them.
Howzabout we split the difference and say no reputable fanzine printer engaged in this practice and move along, 'kay?
I had them on my other laptop that got fried a year-and-a-half ago!
Since most fanzine editors and publishers did it all themselves, and were not members of one big, organized corporation, it's very difficult for you to lump everyone into the same boat. Some fanzine publishers were/are dishonest. Some on purpose; some by neglect or ineptitude. From my perspective, and from what I said in my original post, some small-press fanzine operators were bootleggers. And by then-Paramount's legal point of view, all fanzines were/are bootlegs. That Roddenberry, NBC and Paramount/Viacom, and now CBS, tolerated (and even mentioned fanzines in press releases for each TOS movie) such operations as free promotions (to them) of Star Trek, is amazing, but it also gave unscrupulous fanzine publishers a license to misbehave.
There were/are many reputable small-press groups and individuals, who really did churn out quality product and made no profit. There were just as many fly-by-nighters, one-time operators, bootleggers, and those who sought to make huge profits - because they knew there was little that the genuine, caring, fanzine publishers could do about it.
When did I say bootlegging wasn't wrong?
You're talking to a fellow ST newsletter and fanzine editor, publishers, writer and illustrator here. The newsletter I worked on ran from about 1974 till 2002 (and I was closely associated with it from 1980), and did a stint as editor. I published numerous ST fanzines and "Batman" newsletters, and contributed to, and bought, many others.
Then, from 1998-2002, I was employed as a professional journal editor (circ. 3000), and I got to see the legal, professional reflection of what fanzine editors had been doing on an amateur basis for decades. It wasn't that different. There were rip-off merchants in the professional realm, too.
And you, of course, have never met a fanzine editor who deliberately set up to rip off fans? I know one who had her eyebrows tinted with the early takings of her pre-publication fanzine. It was only an extremely generous friend who, five years down the track, saved her reputation and got the zine out to some very angry customers throughout the world.
Fanzine publishing is filled with stories of small-press operators who were not honest, friendly or reliable, and some of those people managed to continue in fandom for decades. I knew many people who were caught by the infamous "Courts of Honor" K/S scandal. Years after the incident, a few friends - who'd paid twice, and then three times, to wait for over ten years for the zine that never arrived, finally got to hold one in their hands. They were incredulous it really did exist, even though so many people never received their copy. And there were many incidents like this.
As a small-press fanzine publisher myself, I see no insult. I didn't say that every small-press operator was a rip-off merchant. But, sadly, many of them took advantage of their intended audiences, and since fanzines are not dealing in full legality anyway, and can't "go pro" with licensed material.
I am surprised you are willing to defend every operator, when you must have met some very unsavoury characters over the years.
In your neck of the woods, perhaps, but it the more often postage and long freight waits come into it, people will go for the faster bootleg option. You personally don't know any overlap between people who read zines and people who collect scripts and writers' bibles. I do. Although part of me really regrets not purchasing some unused bootleg TOS scripts (including the episode that was supposed to feature Milton Berle), which I saw piled up on a table at the January 1984 Creation Con. I was out of cash and no one was accepting VISA or travelers' checks.
I'd apologize if I thought my comments were totally incorrect, but since we are operating from different interpretations of the term "small press", what good would it do? The bootleggers fall under the umbrella of "small press", so do the legitimate (a questionable term anyway, when referring to fanzines and "fair use") fanzine publishers, and greedy hucksters with photocopiers and comb-binders. If I'm insulting you and your friends, then I'm also insulting myself. And I am not insulted by my use of the term "small press"; I was one.
I'm glad you don't know any unsavoury fanzine publishers.
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Sure, if you like. As I said, it's too late to edit my first post on the matter.
Some reputable fanzine publishers also ended up becoming disreputable. It's a phenomenon you'll find in any organisation that relies totally on volunteer labor, copyright infringement, trust and the international mail services.
Never mind
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My fannish life must be full of mistakes. Obviously I lived the last 30 years under a rock.
Actually, I've lost a great deal of respect for you, Ian. And I've found it best simply to bail on arguments with people who are so convinced of their superiority that they can't admit to making a mistake.
Why, for trying to have a sensible discussion?
Sigh. According to your last post, I made more than one. I don't see I'm pressing any kind of "superiority". You dismissed my examples and, if anything, you appeared to be speaking for all small-press fanzine publishers. That seems incredibly shortsighted, and I attempted to give examples that the scene was simply not that simple.
You have chosen to take my comments personally, and the original statement was not aimed at any individuals at all.
Perhaps because I've had far more experience in fan fiction that you could ever dream of. Equating fanzine presses with bootleggers is insulting, and your steadfast refusal to admit this is pathetic.
Boys, enough. Honestly, you're making yourselves look bad.
Therin, Bootleggers are not fan-presses, and it is very much an insult to say so. For that, you should offer a genreal apology. However, Potemkin, your attitude in both demanding an apology and bragging about how much you've contributed 'to the fandom' is doing yourself (and other fan-press people) no favours.
So, please, as a fellow fan-zine person, both of you knock it the hell off.
Therin, Bootleggers are not fan-presses, and it is very much an insult to say so. For that, you should offer a genreal apology. However, Potemkin, your attitude in both demanding an apology and bragging about how much you've contributed 'to the fandom' is doing yourself (and other fan-press people) no favours.
So, please, as a fellow fan-zine person, both of you knock it the hell off.
From what I've seen, Ian's got some decent fan cred of his own, so let's not start a pissing match. There's no way for it to end well.
And I didn't say they were.
By definition, all unlicensed fanzines of franchises that normally require a license to create tie-in products are bootlegs. We all know that. "Star Trek" fanzines exist because the copyright owner decides not to send "cease and desist" letters. Certain ST fanzines that broke the rules have been shut down by "cease and desist" letters.
I believe I used the term "small-press". In fact, I said: "Many small-press fanzine operators and mail order firms made their own bootleg copies to sell." The term "fanzine" is extremely broad. Fanzine publishers are an example of small-press operators. Wedding invitation printers are an example of small-press operators.
I insist that this statement, "Many small-press fanzine operators...made their own bootleg copies [of scripts] to sell" is not only WRONG, but INSULTING. The fact that you won't acknowledge your error and apologize is truly sad and calls into question many other statements you make in other threads.
I have it around here somewhere (I have a fairly good idea where). I'll see if I can locate it before your arrival.
Lincoln Enterprises was a bit of a sub rosa "publisher" at that. One of the producers of TNG was shocked to find out that Lincoln was selling the TNG bible at conventions before the show premiered. The studio evidently tolerated this for pragmatic reasons, not because Lincoln was in the legal free and clear to do it or had notified them (much less asked permission) beforehand.
When the moderator takes this tone, I think we can safely call the line of discussion officially closed.
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