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Action Comics #900 Discussion

I feel like wanting to post more on this subject but don't want to drag the thread down into an endless debate about politics and philosophies of ideology which is where we could go if we continue in this direction. I'm still a little surprised how viral this story has become. I shouldn't be, but I am, and I still think it's silly.
 
I imagine, like The Death of Superman, it will cause the vapors to some then it will be forgotten in the public and gone in the comic not too far in the future.
 
The Death of Superman has not been forgotten, not in the least. Unless you're talking about retconning an undoing things. This is the thing about this being a back up story, it's still unclear about how this will be used if at all. I'm really leaning towards this being used in "Superman".
 
Yeah, DOS was a story that I thought ridiculous because DC were not about to really kill off a cash cow like Superman. Certain he'd be back, it made the story a waste of time to me.
 
Death of Superman is still one of the all-time great comics, yeah. I mean, yes, it was produced, in large part, for the hype; it had the ill-fortune to be made at the height of the speculator boom; it has become synonymous with bullshit death.

But taken for itself? It's a badass 150 page fight scene with some great bits--the utter dismantling of the Justice League, the part where Matrix (the best-executed Supergirl*) gets punched into jelly, the all-splash page final issue--and Clark's ultimate sacrifice is plausible and Lois' grief is seriously moving.

Also, Clark kills somebody to protect millions of innocent people and no one has ever made a big deal about it, which is always nice to see. The most unappealing thing in the world is watching a superhero get symbolically sentenced by a kangaroo court for using completely justifiable force, especially when the kangaroo jury is full of hypocrites like Bruce "It's okay to kill living gods when I do it" Wayne?

*Which is something else that's neat. It's, like, one of the most famous Superman stories, and has all these weird 90s spins on things that no one but a comics historian would get. Why the hell is Lex Luthor a hirsute Australian?, the average man would ask. It's awesome.
 
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It never thrilled me, then or now. These stunts put me off the Marvel and DC in the 90's and it has again today.
 
^I don't disagree with you that it was a stunt. But I think it's important to separate the execution from the intent.

Compare Final Crisis with its killing of J'onn J'onzz and Bruce Wayne, for example. Give me Death of Superman over that mess any day. Or give me a razor. So I could feel something.
 
Bruce Wayne didn't die in Final Crisis...he was misplaced through time. Wish fans would stop saying he was killed.

Death of Superman was an interesting story that turned into a big gimmick that DC Editorial couldn't really stop because it was selling like hot cakes at the time.
 
I might have enjoyed it had it been a shorter story and not milked for every penny that DC could conceive an angle for. That or had released it as a trade outright rather than drag the story on for as long as they did. I am not a fan of using monthlies to tell 6 month or year long stories. Very rarely do I care enough to follow the tale for so long as more often than not it is a decompressed tale that could be wrapped up in half the time.

The Red Sonja/Spider-man story from Dynamite was like that. The original was a cracking one shot tale, that Dynamite one was OK but dull for having been dragged out over 5 months, I think it was. As a trade it was fine with good art, but waiting month to month I could understand anyone dropping it from boredom.

Just look at JMS's Wonder Woman or Superman, neither tale really needed a year to be told but might be tolerable at that length, if you could read the story in one complete tale. I sometimes wonder how many readers a book might lose by having a story arc go on too long not just in that tale but also by being uninterested in returning to the book when the arc or creative team has changed. I honestly don't think the monthlies benefit very well from long arcs overall.
 
The length of Death of Superman, Reign of the Supermen, Return of Superman is what eventually turned me off as well.
 
Bruce Wayne didn't die in Final Crisis...he was misplaced through time. Wish fans would stop saying he was killed.

I know, my friend. Superman didn't really die in Death of Superman, either: he got the hell kicked out of him and went into a vegetative state while his body repaired itself to its proper, bemulletted state.

There's little other conclusion to draw from "How to Murder the Earth," though, yes, "New Heaven, New Earth" shows where he ended up after getting his flesh and soul stripped off by the Omega Sanction.

On the other hand, anyone with sense stopped reading by that point. (I exist, of course, in a sense-free zone. Except a brutalized aesthetic sense.)

Gov Kodos said:
Just look at JMS's Wonder Woman or Superman, neither tale really needed a year to be told but might be tolerable at that length, if you could read the story in one complete tale. I sometimes wonder how many readers a book might lose by having a story arc go on too long not just in that tale but also by being uninterested in returning to the book when the arc or creative team has changed. I honestly don't think the monthlies benefit very well from long arcs overall.

Now, I'm a big booster of switching entirely to a trade-driven format, since that would cut the endless chaff from the rare wheat that comprises monthly superhero comics, but I dunno. I remember slavering over Sandman's The Kindly Ones, for example, and I wonder what it would've been like to read Watchmen on a monthly basis. Probably excruciating, punctuated by moments of pleasure as defined by the lunar orbit, much like a reverse period.
 
I don't understand why JMS felt like "Grounded" needed to be a year long. One six month arc would be fine for that. Have Clark examine himself and the country, pop in a visit from Dick or Bruce as they try to figure what the hell is wrong with him, then come to a conclusion and move onto the next arc. At first I thought the concept of "Grounded" was a perfect change of pace after the conclusion of the "New Krypton" and "War of Supermen" arcs but not at a full year.
 
That's the problem with that story, and why it would never be in canon. If Superman is willing to go to an Iranian protest, why doesn't he just grab Ahamindajid and Kim Jong Il and Ghaddafi and throw them all in jail? It just opens a huge can of worms that destroys the spandex combat narrative of comic books.

As I recall, they skirted the issue in WWII by saying Hitler held the Spear of Destiny which prevented any superheroes from entering Europe by a magical barrier.

I actually love Death/Return of Superman. I just re-read it a year ago and I still love it. It's so much fun to have all those characters thrown together and interacting with each other. I love they would have individual team-ups and then all got together with the real deal for one huge super-team at the end.

As much as I liked the premise of the New Krypton mega-saga, I think the actual execution lacked something and the ending was disappointing, where Death/Return was more coherent and satisfying an ending.
 
That's the problem with that story, and why it would never be in canon. If Superman is willing to go to an Iranian protest, why doesn't he just grab Ahamindajid and Kim Jong Il and Ghaddafi and throw them all in jail? It just opens a huge can of worms that destroys the spandex combat narrative of comic books.

I've never been convinced it would, really. Do stories in the DC Universe really turn on whether Ahmadinejad is still the president of Iran? Do they turn on whether there's realistic suffering in the world? Or do they depend more on space monsters and Lex Luthor in a hideous green-and-purple suit?

Now, I don't want them to ever go full-on Miracleman with that sort of thing, because when you do that you rapidly run out of places to go--it's hard to say how many more stories Miracleman could have generated by the time it ended. A big coming-out-of-the-closet action scene for Young Miracleman is about the logical extent of anything relatable Gaiman could have done. (And it's interesting how Moore and Gaiman, using the superhero, slammed right into the singulatarian problem in literature before the term was invented, but that's another discussion.)

But just getting rid of dictators, appealing to people's sense of justice, and beating up on Nick Naylor? That's literally what Superman was invented for. Supervillains had to come in to make it remotely interesting. And supervillains stuck around.

Somehow, so did the dictators. And it's never made sense, and rarely added much to the stories. Maybe Ruman Harjavti. He was pretty neat.

Now, there is another way to handle the "Why Does Superman Leave Hitler Alone?" problem, that has a pretty nice pedigree. And that's the Doctor Doom solution. See also Black Adam. You want dictators? You make your dictators supervillains. Then you have a proper reason why Superman or Wonder Woman aren't busting their chops: if so, the collateral damage would be immense, and they could possibly die, leaving no deterrent to the supervillain expanding his power.

And, really, aren't real-life dictators basically supervillains anyway? Kim Jong Il, I mean that guy is completely Thaddeus Sivana.

As I recall, they skirted the issue in WWII by saying Hitler held the Spear of Destiny which prevented any superheroes from entering Europe by a magical barrier.
I've never been really clear if that was the case. In James Robinson's The Golden Age, it was just a cover story for Parsifal (it is not made entirely clear why the U.S. needed to invent a cover story involving Jesus' blood in order to hide the facts about a Nazi who could depower superheroes).

The only time I recall the Spear of Destiny in the DCU proper was when Superman was gonna gore the Spectre with it, after the Spectre destroyed Vlatava (sorry Count Vertigo! you suck anyway).

It's a slight failure of imagination, too. It'd be easy enough to explain why the true Green Lantern and Flash (Alan Scott and Jay Garrick) didn't take the Wehrmacht apart in a day, if Nazi Germany and the other Axis powers had supervillains in proportion to their own population.

Unfortunately, most American comic writers have never been good at even trying to create superhumans who weren't American too. It's not even a 1940s thing. Despite a sustained effort to make it more international, at least a plurality of major mutants in the Marvel U are American for some reason; and the vast majority are ethnically European. (E.g., Claremont's Giant-Size lineup: nice try, seriously--but how many weren't white or American? Sunfire and Storm, iirc. And Sunfire isn't even an important character.)
 
At least until the late 80s Hitler keeping the JSA out of Europe with the Spear of Destiny was definite and oft-stated DCU canon.
 
Unfortunately, most American comic writers have never been good at even trying to create superhumans who weren't American too. It's not even a 1940s thing. Despite a sustained effort to make it more international, at least a plurality of major mutants in the Marvel U are American for some reason; and the vast majority are ethnically European. (E.g., Claremont's Giant-Size lineup: nice try, seriously--but how many weren't white or American? Sunfire and Storm, iirc. And Sunfire isn't even an important character.)

Most writers tend to what they know and, further, most mass media content is about the country where it is marketed. It's not really fair to single out comic books on this.

For example, have you looked at network television in the US? Or the big hit movies? Quite a lot of white, upper middle class, Americans.

Furthermore, since most TV writers work in (or worked in) NY and LA, the shows are typically set in those cities or someplace that looks just like those cities.

Hell, even the Simpsons has gotten to the point where it's patently obvious that Springfield is now in California, what with the desert on one side and the ocean on the other.
 
Yeah, but most writers aren't writing about superhumans whose distribution should be more-or-less random.* Is there a good reason every Green Lantern for Earth is male, American, and on average three-quarters white? Is there a good reason John Stewart is wearing the clothes he is now?

That last question has nothing to do with the topic. It's just his Indigo Lantern costume is obscenely bad.

*Oh my God. Like, if there were two hundred fifty or so American mutants, shouldn't there have been a thousand Chinese mutants? Instead of, like, one or, depending on which fucked up version of Xorn's story you accept, none? They're gone now, I guess, but here's why: the Scarlet Witch is a secret racist. Magneto, did you teach her nothing?
 
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