Your thoughts and views on The Inner Light

[{ Emilia }]

This is generally true, though there is nothing particulalry slow about STNG. Viewership figures on STNG were always rising, especially in seasons he is trying to claim were "slow". Someone apparently saw the value of dialogue rich episodes of drama at the time.

RAMA

Do you sometimes say stuff like "Wow, no way they'd make a show like this today. " when watching TNG?

Happens to me once in a while and it's kinda sad. The storytelling and dialogue was so rich. And I just can't imagine American TV making a liberal show like TNG in the post-9/11, Jack Bauer, torture-the-terrorist era.

 

[BillJ]

This is generally true, though there is nothing particulalry slow about STNG. Viewership figures on STNG were always rising, especially in seasons he is trying to claim were "slow". Someone apparently saw the value of dialogue rich episodes of drama at the time.

RAMA

There are plenty of dialogue rich episodes that don't put me to sleep. You keep trying to frame the issue that if someone doesn't like an episode your enamored with that they obviously can't be a fan and that their opinion isn't worthwhile because TNG did good numbers.

The Inner Light is dull... Where No One Has Gone Before, The Drumhead, Half-a-Life and Ensign Ro are all dialogue heavy episodes that don't put me to sleep.

Live with it... life does go on.

 

[RAMA]

This is generally true, though there is nothing particulalry slow about STNG. Viewership figures on STNG were always rising, especially in seasons he is trying to claim were "slow". Someone apparently saw the value of dialogue rich episodes of drama at the time.

RAMA

There are plenty of dialogue rich episodes that don't put me to sleep. You keep trying to frame the issue that if someone doesn't like an episode your enamored with that they obviously can't be a fan and that their opinion isn't worthwhile because TNG did good numbers.

The Inner Light is dull... Where No One Has Gone Before, The Drumhead, Half-a-Life and Ensign Ro are all dialogue heavy episodes that don't put me to sleep.

Live with it... life does go on.

Life goes on, you just happen to be wrong about your claim. I do believe everyone has the right to like whatever they want of course...but some things are just more credible than others. You can like Lost in Space for example (or The Royale..ick), and I'm fine with that (hey I dont have to watch it), but you start claiming its better than TOS or STNG, I'd have to call you on it. So there is a qualitative difference that I can respond to. In this particular case, its hard to take your claims seriously and I'm saying so. You can go back to disliking The Inner Light in your wrongness and read a nice comfy TOS thread about bell bottoms and mini skirts now.

Edit: You know I was re-reading this after stuffing my face at an Easter dinner and spending time with the family and I realized I forgot to put a smiley face, this wasn't meant to sound as nasty as it now sounds to me. Was meant to be more light-hearted.

RAMA

 

[T'Girl]

Nice how you left out that Kirk had to sacrifice someone he loved for millions to live.

Plus Kirk was interacting with real people, not just a program that was being downloaded into his skull like in the case of Picard.

but surely an experience so profound as living a complete liftetime

But would the experience persist? Picard was unconscious for twelve (twelve?) minutes, then he woke up from what was essentially only a vivid dream. Other than a interest in the flute that was found, the majority of the story that was projected into his mind could have faded over the next few hours.

Think of it this way, if I isolated you from your current group of friend for multiple decades, then in a blink of an eye you were back in today surrounded by your "former" friends would you instantly remember them? Picard knew Riker and Troi instantly

Picard got to know these people, but these people never got to know the person who got to know them.

Well there were no actual people, we don't even know if the "people" in the projection represented real individuals, or were created characters for the purpose of the projection narrative.

Try as hard as he could Picard would have been unable to make any profound changes in the intended plotline, because then he might not get the message that the probes creators wanted to convey, Picard likely found that he was incapable of leaving that village in which he found himself, he was "locked in."

Think of the series "The Prisoner," or the movie "The Truman Show." Difference being, perhaps like in the book "The Wizard of Oz," there was literally nothing outside the created existence if Picard's "Oz."

------

Does anyone want to discuss the forced "mind rape" aspect of the episode?

 

[TrekAlliance92]

Yeah, I agree with the earlier poster that it is a dull, uninteresting episode that doesn't even touch my top episodes. Give me any good Voyager or Enterprise episodes over this one, much less good or great TNG episodes. I never cared for this one, and still don't.

 

[BillJ]

Life goes on, you just happen to be wrong about your claim. I do believe everyone has the right to like whatever they want of course...but some things are just more credible than others. You can like Lost in Space for example (or The Royale..ick), and I'm fine with that (hey I dont have to watch it), but you start claiming its better than TOS or STNG, I'd have to call you on it. So there is a qualitative difference that I can respond to. In this particular case, its hard to take your claims seriously and I'm saying so. You can go back to disliking The Inner Light in your wrongness and read a nice comfy TOS thread about bell bottoms and mini skirts now.

RAMA

I can guarantee there are far more people who'd rather watch The Royale than The Inner Light than you'd like to admit.

Plus, I really don't think a TNG fan should be throwing the "dated" stone without first examining their own glass house.

 

[RAMA]

Plus Kirk was interacting with real people, not just a program that was being downloaded into his skull like in the case of Picard.

This means little, as with modern technology now, and where its likely to go in the near future, what we consider reality is much more in doubt...is it any less real to the person if its experienced in the mind or say, some information network (see Ghost in the Shell about a program on the internet gaining "sentience" and associated themes). Inception also makes the point about where reality and thought are almost interchangeable through technology. The millions of people on Kataan were real, and Picard got to experience some of them through the probe. Imagine if extinct cultures on Earth could have done this? Researches and avg people would have a field day, both intellectually and through empathy.

But would the experience persist? Picard was unconscious for twelve (twelve?) minutes, then he woke up from what was essentially only a vivid dream. Other than a interest in the flute that was found, the majority of the story that was projected into his mind could have faded over the next few hours.

Apparently it did, Picard kept his flute and played the tune several times.

Well there were no actual people, we don't even know if the "people" in the projection represented real individuals, or were created characters for the purpose of the projection narrative.

Try as hard as he could Picard would have been unable to make any profound changes in the intended plotline, because then he might not get the message that the probes creators wanted to convey, Picard likely found that he was incapable of leaving that village in which he found himself, he was "locked in."

Think of the series "The Prisoner," or the movie "The Truman Show." Difference being, perhaps like in the book "The Wizard of Oz," there was literally nothing outside the created existence if Picard's "Oz."

This is true, then the plot would have taken a malevolent turn, however it seems like the dream was supposed to come to a conclusion after the climax...but what if the old probe had malfunctioned??

Does anyone want to discuss the forced "mind rape" aspect of the episode?

Aside from the initial connection, its more of a molestation of the mind...but hey, no one said the Kataanians were right in what they did, only understandable. It's possible that there was no way to plan for easy interfaces with other species, or to ask nicely in any way with their technological level but maybe they meant to, it just didn't work with humans. Only speculation of course.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Plus Kirk was interacting with real people, not just a program that was being downloaded into his skull like in the case of Picard.

You hit the nail on the head. I spent an hour watching Picard watch a movie. *yawn*

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, I agree with the earlier poster that it is a dull, uninteresting episode that doesn't even touch my top episodes. Give me any good Voyager or Enterprise episodes over this one, much less good or great TNG episodes. I never cared for this one, and still don't.

Guess you have no taste and hate TNG too!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I give it an B+.

It has certain similarities with TOS: The Paradise Syndrome, and I wish The Inner Light would have taken its approach to integrate Picard into Kataan society. In other words, I think Picard's memory should have been entirely erased at the outset. Rather than coming out of a fever, he should have just assumed the role of Kamin, say during his wedding ceremony, ending the teaser with Kamin/Picard saying "I do." I'd have had Kamin dream of a starship over the years, musing to Eline how real the dreams seemed to him, in anticipation of the illusion collapsing altogether when he watches the probe launch.

As it was, "When do I get you back?" was cringeworthy dialog, as was "I'd like to ask your permission to build something. ... A nursery." My suspension of disbelief was severely strained. Picard would ever give in to the illusion, if he had any actual memory of the Enterprise, much less one that was as real as his present life experiences. The conflict over pulling him into the illusion was artificial, unnecessary, and for the story to work as scripted, Picard had to act against his character as captain of the Enterprise. Wank all you want, but this episode needed some rewrites with respect to this issue, which is why I can't give it an A.

The basic idea of a high-tech message in a bottle, which is all that's left of a dead civilization, is fabulous though.

 

[RAMA]

Life goes on, you just happen to be wrong about your claim. I do believe everyone has the right to like whatever they want of course...but some things are just more credible than others. You can like Lost in Space for example (or The Royale..ick), and I'm fine with that (hey I dont have to watch it), but you start claiming its better than TOS or STNG, I'd have to call you on it. So there is a qualitative difference that I can respond to. In this particular case, its hard to take your claims seriously and I'm saying so. You can go back to disliking The Inner Light in your wrongness and read a nice comfy TOS thread about bell bottoms and mini skirts now.

RAMA

I can guarantee there are far more people who'd rather watch The Royale than The Inner Light than you'd like to admit.

Plus, I really don't think a TNG fan should be throwing the "dated" stone without first examining their own glass house.

I'll send all 6 of them a consoling note.

I wasn't really referring to the "datedness" of TOS, but more about the posters on that forum...

STNG doesn't seem dated much, just a few examples. With its futuristic concept and relatively neutral styles and stylistic language its pretty hard for it to be dated. By far the MOST dated thing is something that made it high tech in its time...it was shot on video for quick editing!!!!!! Its frustrating that an HD version will be so hard to manage.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

I give it an B+.

It has certain similarities with TOS: The Paradise Syndrome, and I wish The Inner Light would have taken its approach to integrate Picard into Kataan society. In other words, I think Picard's memory should have been entirely erased at the outset. Rather than coming out of a fever, he should have just assumed the role of Kamin, say during his wedding ceremony, ending the teaser with Kamin/Picard saying "I do." I'd have had Kamin dream of a starship over the years, musing to Eline how real the dreams seemed to him, in anticipation of the illusion collapsing altogether when he watches the probe launch.

As it was, "When do I get you back?" was cringeworthy dialog, as was "I'd like to ask your permission to build something. ... A nursery." My suspension of disbelief was severely strained. Picard would ever give in to the illusion, if he had any actual memory of the Enterprise, much less one that was as real as his present life experiences. The conflict over pulling him into the illusion was artificial, unnecessary, and for the story to work as scripted, Picard had to act against his character as captain of the Enterprise. Wank all you want, but this episode needed some rewrites with respect to this issue, which is why I can't give it an A.

The basic idea of a high-tech message in a bottle, which is all that's left of a dead civilization, is fabulous though.

Nope, I'd expect Picard to have the exact SAME cultural shock going in as he had coming out. By being aware of everything, he learns. By forgetting, Kirk didn't really learn much as he was going.

RAMA

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Nope, I'd expect Picard to have the exact SAME cultural shock going in as he had coming out. By being aware of everything, he learns. By forgetting, Kirk didn't really learn much as he was going.

RAMA

Say what? Picard had practically zero cultural shock coming out of the illusion. Evidently, not any that lasted for years.

EDIT: I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean, really.

 

[RAMA]

This is generally true, though there is nothing particulalry slow about STNG. Viewership figures on STNG were always rising, especially in seasons he is trying to claim were "slow". Someone apparently saw the value of dialogue rich episodes of drama at the time.

RAMA

Do you sometimes say stuff like "Wow, no way they'd make a show like this today. " when watching TNG?

Happens to me once in a while and it's kinda sad. The storytelling and dialogue was so rich. And I just can't imagine American TV making a liberal show like TNG in the post-9/11, Jack Bauer, torture-the-terrorist era.

STNG is a unique show, while TOS and STTMP had elements of it, the central ideas Gene Roddenberry wanted to express came to heir full fruition with STNG. By being fairly positive, and advanced (without being a utopia) STNG uses plots that argue issues from positivity rather than the much more common dystopia. I would argue this isn't necessarily more "proper" but that it's a more unique and interesting way for contemporary people to be exposed to the ideas and accounts for its great popularity, while at the same time, it doesn't really adhere to the zeitgeist of our age...knee jerk negativity.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Nope, I'd expect Picard to have the exact SAME cultural shock going in as he had coming out. By being aware of everything, he learns. By forgetting, Kirk didn't really learn much as he was going.

RAMA

Say what? Picard had practically zero cultural shock coming out of the illusion. Evidently, not any that lasted for years.

EDIT: I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean, really.

He definitely had a reaction when he came out of it, he was dizzy, and obviosuly felt at that point like the Kataan reality was the real one, just as he assumed the Enterprise was the real one when he first went in. Of course since he was originally indoctrinated to that idea he probably didn't need as much time to recover afterwards. Why would it need to last for years??? Doesn't make sense. In the probe it was a condensed history for the purposes of the programming, real life is not..

Also I am saying I think your plot idea is terrible...kirk learned nothing (nor did he really need to) from his experience in PS by forgetting. Picard NEEDED to be aware of himself IN the dream as well when he came out for it to be effective. Sorry, I thought my post was self-explanatory based on what you wrote..

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

So I went to Barnes and Noble to pick up Star Trek: Watching the Clock by Christopher Bennett and decided to watch The Inner Light when I came back... since I hadn't seen it in several years.

Interesting premise... dull execution.

This is the most passive hour of television that I've seen in my thirty plus years of watching TV. The crew waiting for Picard to come out of it and Kamin (Picard) just going through the motions. I was watching Picard watch a movie.

I'm sorry, there is just no other way to say it.

Then the only action is laughable as Riker orders the beam terminated even though Crusher (the expert) tells him it isn't a good idea. Starfleet probably dodged three bullets by him turning down the commands offered to him.

This is an episode that probably needed to go through another rewrite or two.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Then the only action is laughable as Riker orders the beam terminated even though Crusher (the expert) tells him it isn't a good idea. Starfleet probably dodged three bullets by him turning down the commands offered to him.

Kirk does that about every other episode.

It's funny The Royale is mentioned in this thread, which I consider to be in the same vein. I like both of them.
Of course it's completely fine you don't like an episode of Star Trek, even if it is one of the best. Anomalous, but one of the best. Different strokes...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Nope, I'd expect Picard to have the exact SAME cultural shock going in as he had coming out. By being aware of everything, he learns. By forgetting, Kirk didn't really learn much as he was going.

RAMA

Say what? Picard had practically zero cultural shock coming out of the illusion. Evidently, not any that lasted for years.

EDIT: I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you mean, really.

He definitely had a reaction when he came out of it, he was dizzy, and obviosuly felt at that point like the Kataan reality was the real one, just as he assumed the Enterprise was the real one when he first went in. Of course since he was originally indoctrinated to that idea he probably didn't need as much time to recover afterwards. Why would it need to last for years??? Doesn't make sense. In the probe it was a condensed history for the purposes of the programming, real life is not..

Also I am saying I think your plot idea is terrible...kirk learned nothing (nor did he really need to) from his experience in PS by forgetting. Picard NEEDED to be aware of himself IN the dream as well when he came out for it to be effective. Sorry, I thought my post was self-explanatory based on what you wrote..

RAMA

Say what? Picard was still wrestling with the reality of the illusion after experiencing five years under it, far longer than "when he first went in". From a transcript:

ELINE: You've been dreaming of that starship of yours again, haven't you?
PICARD: I'm just charting progress of the course of the sun. It might give a clue to the cause of this drought.
ELINE: I think you're still trying to figure out where you are. Where that ship of yours is. How to get back to that life.
PICARD: The memory is five years old now, but it's still inside me.
ELINE: Was your life there so much better than this? So much more gratifying, so much more fulfilling, that you cling to it with such stubbornness?
PICARD: Eline.
ELINE: It must have been extraordinary. But never in all of the stories you've told me have you mentioned anyone who loved you as I do.
PICARD: It was real. It was as real as this is. And you can't expect me to forget a lifetime spent there.
ELINE: Yes, I can. I've been patient, Kamin. For five years I've shared you with that other life. I've listened, I've tried to understand, and I have waited. When do I get you back?

To say he might need years to recover is not unreasonable. Indeed, it seems that Ronald D. Moore agrees. From http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(episode)#Behind_the_scenes:

I've always felt that the experience in "Inner Light" would've been the most profound experience in Picard's life and changed him irrevocably. However, that wasn't our intention when we were creating the episode. We were after a good hour of TV, and the larger implications of how this would really screw somebody up didn't hit home with us until later (that's sometimes a danger in TV – you're so focused on just getting the show produced every week that sometimes you suffer from the "can't see the forest for the trees" syndrome). We never intended the show to completely upend his character and force a radical change in the series, so we contented ourselves with a single follow-up in "Lessons". (AOL chat, 1997)

The fact that "his wife" in the illusion keeps pressuring him into going along with it doesn't help the case that it's not mind rape, so maybe I'm with T'Girl on this point. (Not that it wouldn't be something like mind date rape, if the probe temporarily blocked his memories altogether.)

For those who are interested, part of the bumpy history of the writing of the episode, as well as a description of Gendel's idea for an ill-conceived sequel for it, may be found here. Seven pitches, and I and others still think it needed a rewrite. Well it won a Hugo anyway, I did praise the message in the bottle angle, and my B+ grade for it was high, so congratulations, Morgan Gendel!

 

[TrekAlliance92]

Yeah, I agree with the earlier poster that it is a dull, uninteresting episode that doesn't even touch my top episodes. Give me any good Voyager or Enterprise episodes over this one, much less good or great TNG episodes. I never cared for this one, and still don't.

Guess you have no taste and hate TNG too!

Lol, funny that I own and frequently watch a series I hate, huh?

 

[M-Red]

It's a beautiful episode that captures a lot of what's great about TNG -- a rich science fiction story with a contemplative ending that conveys a larger message.

The script is imaginative and tightly executed. Stewart nails the role, and the direction is superb. It's an unorthodox episode for Trek (and it IS slow) but it's a great hour of sci-fi that's one of TNG's best, imo.