Depressed about Vulcan

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I loved it. It was that Vulcan had such a rich culture (especially in the novels) that made it's demise so impactful. It's the defining event that seperates STXI from TOS.

Besides, the essence of their culture lives on on the new colony planet, and with all the Katras the Vulcan elders were "downloading" when Spock came to rescue them.

Oh I agree. I'm not complaining, I'm just reflecting. If it could depress me while watching ENT (the only series still intact in the JJverse) it just means the impact has not left me. It's supposed to be depressing. I really do hope the rebuilding and loss of Vulcan is a big part of ST:XII, though I suspect it won't be. IMHO though if you're going to blow the whole thing up the loss needs to be a major element in future films. If it's just dropped and only served to angstify NuSpock for a couple scenes in XI that will be a waste.

I thought the destruction of Vulcan was a high price to pay for effect. But if you're throwing caution to the wind, why not Earth instead? Now THAT would have been ballsy!

Totally, and I would have been 100% behind it as a film move. But it also would have been much more of a reboot, without Starfleet as the background to the same extent for future movies. More aliens, humans as a much less powerful minority, trying to find what their place in the Federation was now.

If it got to you that much I think you need to revaluate your life lol.

Hey, this stuff is my deathsticks. Me and my alt.world are perfectly content with each other.

 

[Set Harth]

OK then, I didn't realize that it was an alternate universe even before Spock and Nero came back.

That may be a popular theory in some circles, but it seems to be the intent of the writers that Nero's time travel created the alternate timeline.

the act of time travel itself creates a new universe that exists in PARALLEL to the one left by the time traveler.

 

[Merky]

So that means Earth still drowned by that whale probe in STIV?



How sad

 

[F. King Daniel]

OK then, I didn't realize that it was an alternate universe even before Spock and Nero came back. That seems kind of odd that they would shift between universes when traveling back through time, but I can see why they wouldn't want to have the post-TOS timeline so wildly altered.

It wasn't. From the moment the Narada arrives in 2233, it changes history creating an alternate timeline. In the multiverse where there's a branching reality for each and every possibility, either the Narada does appear in 2233 (leading to STXI) or it doesn't (leading to TOS)

 

[sonak]

OK then, I didn't realize that it was an alternate universe even before Spock and Nero came back. That seems kind of odd that they would shift between universes when traveling back through time, but I can see why they wouldn't want to have the post-TOS timeline so wildly altered.

It wasn't. From the moment the Narada arrives in 2233, it changes history creating an alternate timeline. In the multiverse where there's a branching reality for each and every possibility, either the Narada does appear in 2233 (leading to STXI) or it doesn't (leading to TOS)

OK, then they changed the Trek rules for this movie to have their cake and eat it too.

 

[BillJ]

OK, then they changed the rules for one movie to have their cake and eat it too.

But this fan found the route they took dramatically unsatisfying. Why do I care if they killed Amanda and blew up Vulcan? They're still there in the main timeline.

They *seemingly didn't have the balls to do a full on reboot or to actually say that they were overriding the main timeline. YMMV.

*I say 'seemingly' because I don't know what restrictions Paramount put on them. Like Generations, they may have had a set of plot points handed to them that they had to include in the film.

 

[Gojira]

Call me an idiot if you like, but is it explicitly stated in some companion to the film that Star Trek XI is in an alternate universe?


It seems to me that Spock Prime and Nero simply travelled directly back in time and changed the Prime Universe's timeline, they didn't create an alternate one.


Otherwise, that's very different from previous time travel in Star Trek. The Ent-C in "yesterday's Enterprise went back and changed the UFP-Klingon war timeline, right?


I mean, there's not still a timeline with the heavily militarized Federation fighting the Klingons, while seasons 4-7 of TNG are in an alternate timeline, is there?


it's been assumed that changing the past changes THE SAME TIMELINE. When did the rules change for Trek XI?

I agree with you. The movie plays like a typical Trek time travel episode where the main time line is erased with no reset button pushed at the end.

But the writers have stated that their intent was to create an alternate universe even though they did a piss poor job of depicting that on the screen.

An alternate universe does take the sting out of Amanda's death and the destruction of Vulcan.

But despite my observation that the movie does a poor job showing that an alternate universe was created I will abide by the intentions of the writers because I don't want to see 40 years of Star Trek made irrelevant.

 

[Shazam!]

I am anxious to see where the alternate reality goes from here.

My guess is that it'll be about Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise saving the Earth / Universe / Galaxy a couple of times.

 

[Merky]

I am anxious to see where the alternate reality goes from here.

My guess is that it'll be about Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise saving the Earth / Universe / Galaxy a couple of times.

zing

 

[Set Harth]

they did a piss poor job of depicting that on the screen.

Not really. They quite noticeably ( some would say ham-handedly ) inserted the idea into the film's dialogue.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

they did a piss poor job of depicting that on the screen.

Not really. They quite noticeably ( some would say ham-handedly ) inserted the idea into the film's dialogue.

Yes. Which they didn't have to do, they could have just made a movie with no explanation but they were quite pointed about this being a new timeline and the old one still intact.

 

[Gojira]

they did a piss poor job of depicting that on the screen.

Not really. They quite noticeably ( some would say ham-handedly ) inserted the idea into the film's dialogue.

I would agree that it was ham-handed or ambiguous at best. There is enough ambiguity that a debate has been raging on message boards since the film came out to whether or not this movie erased the old time line or created an alternate universe.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Since novels set in the prime timeline continue to be written, I think the latter is far more likely.

 

[Gojira]

^ Since novels set in the prime timeline continue to be written, I think the latter is far more likely.

But novels aren't canon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I don't care.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That about covers it...as Stan Marsh would say: Don't care, don't care, don't care.

 

[Merky]

Ahahahahahaaaaa the answer to all internet debates. I lol'd irl at that one...

 

[Anduril]

they did a piss poor job of depicting that on the screen.

Not really. They quite noticeably ( some would say ham-handedly ) inserted the idea into the film's dialogue.

Yes. Which they didn't have to do, they could have just made a movie with no explanation but they were quite pointed about this being a new timeline and the old one still intact.

If they didn't explain it we would be having the SAME discussion.

 

[Set Harth]

I would agree that it was ham-handed or ambiguous at best.

Those two allegations ( ham-handedness and ambiguity ) are at cross purposes. I called it "ham-handed" as a way of expressing the idea that ambiguity was sacrificed in favor of a blunt statement.

There is enough ambiguity that a debate has been raging on message boards since the film came out to whether or not this movie erased the old time line or created an alternate universe.

There's debate on message boards about a lot of things clearly established by films. The mere existence of debate doesn't necessarily indicate anything, ambiguity included. In this case it might be suggested that the debate arises from personal investment in single timeline theory rather than any weakness in the film itself.

 

[sonak]

A little help here, please. Can someone quote the part from the movie where it's explained that it's an alternate universe BEFORE Spock Prime and Nero go back in time?


I feel kind of dumb for having missed it. I've seen the movie three or four times and I don't remember that part.