The First Interracial Kiss on (American) Television

[Nerys Myk]

Context is important, Trelane was trying to relate to Kirk as a 18th Century Gentleman and so used the terminolgy and perspective of an 18th Century wealthy white male. IIRC Kirks response was more of an eye roll in the sense "can this guy be serious?" Similarly Lincoln in "Savage Curtain" was seeing Uhura through the eyes of an 19th Century white male. Whitewashing history to make it more paletable to the modern audience is dishonest and a disservice to the struggle for civil rights.

 

[indranee]

So you have documentation about a rise in conversions to Judaism? A significant rise that would impact the ethnic element of Judaism?

How can you know "all about the Pograms" and not be aware of the postion of Jews in European society at the time Shatner and Nimoy's ancestors were living in Russia?

No, I don't have documentation but it's an easily arrived at theory if you look at the global trend in terms of migration and religious mutation.

And what did I say that told you that I wasn't aware of "the postion of Jews in European society at the time Shatner and Nimoy's ancestors were living in Russia"?

Jewish migration? Isn't Most of that to Israel.?What trend is there in the mutation of Judaism that would indicate a rise in non Jews converting?

The whole "Jewish" isn't an ethnicity and Nimoy is a Russian name so Nimoy is ethnically Russian statements. Which to me indicates a lack of knowledge or understanding of the Jewish dispora and the Pogroms as a motivating force to Jewish migration and immigration throughout history.

But it's true. Being "Jewish" is increasingly not necessarily a question of ethnicity. And I'm basing it on migration/intermarriage patterns AND personal experience. Are you comprehending what I'm writing here or are you just off an a "huff-n-puff" tangent because I'm disagreeing with you on what seems to be a topic close to your ego. I am detecting a personal tone here. I might be wrong though. If so, I apologize.

What was really a funny coincidence was that yesterday I got a call at work from a scientist (an author in the climate journal I work for) who moved from India to Israel (1949) and then to the States (1962) and then we proceeded to have a long discussion on this very topic. The world is a magical place

 

[indranee]

Its not about Judaism either. But drift happens.

lol, that's true too.

and it's what we love about the BBS

 

[Merky]

Context is important, Trelane was trying to relate to Kirk as a 18th Century Gentleman and so used the terminolgy and perspective of an 18th Century wealthy white male. IIRC Kirks response was more of an eye roll in the sense "can this guy be serious?" Similarly Lincoln in "Savage Curtain" was seeing Uhura through the eyes of an 19th Century white male. Whitewashing history to make it more paletable to the modern audience is dishonest and a disservice to the struggle for civil rights.

I would have agreed had Kirk not spent the entire episode correcting Trelane how the future wasn't the 18th century he was so enthralled with or if Trelane didn't force her to play the harpsichord like a slave girl of the period.

Kirk could have said, " No, she isn't someone I've picked up on my conquests as we do not go on conquests ". Uhura could have said, " No, I'm not one of his conquests. " instead of sitting there all " duuuuhhhurrr ". Or Kirk could have put Trelane in his place rather than rolling his eyes and sarcastically replying. That doesn't send a message of " This ideology is wrong and doesn't fit into society "... the so called message the show gets credited for portraying.

But then again, this is also coming from the same season that used the " Spock is actually a Chinese kid I saved from a rice field accident " or however the joke went.


As for the topic of Jewish vs Judaism... My opinion is this, you can't claim to be ethnically Israelite if your family has basically intermarried so much in the new homeland that the bloodline gets thinned out. It's like the old claim that a lot of people make saying they're Native American despite the fact that it maybe their great x 5 grandmother on their father's side that was the only Native American. Does that make any sense? Nimoy is ethnically Russian, his heritage is Jewish. It does not mean that he is from the Middle East as his family probably migrated to that region in Europe hundreds or so years prior and married into the natives there.

 

[scotpens]

But then again, this is also coming from the same season that used the "Spock is actually a Chinese kid I saved from a rice field accident" or however the joke went.

From “The City on the Edge of Forever”:

(Kirk and Spock have just run into a policeman after stealing some clothes.)

POLICEMAN: Well?

KIRK: You're a police officer. I recognise the traditional accoutrements.

SPOCK: You were saying you'll have no trouble explaining it.

KIRK: My friend is obviously Chinese. (pause) I see you've noticed the ears. They're actually easy to explain.
(A crowd is gathering.)

SPOCK: (sotto voce) Perhaps the unfortunate accident I had as a child.

KIRK: The unfortunate accident he had as a child. Caught his head in a mechanical . . .(groping for words) . . . rice picker. But fortunately, there was an American missionary living close by who was actually a skilled plastic surgeon in civilian life —

POLICEMAN: All right, all right. Drop those bundles and put your hands on that wall there! Come on!

The joke is that Kirk is frantically trying to improvise an explanation for Spock’s appearance, while the policeman couldn’t care less — all he knows is that he just caught two thieves red-handed! It’s one of the funniest moments in all of Trek TOS.

 

[Merky]

Yes, that's fine. It was funny, not as funny as everyone else thought. People do have different tastes in humor, after all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, I don't have documentation but it's an easily arrived at theory if you look at the global trend in terms of migration and religious mutation.

And what did I say that told you that I wasn't aware of "the postion of Jews in European society at the time Shatner and Nimoy's ancestors were living in Russia"?

Jewish migration? Isn't Most of that to Israel.?What trend is there in the mutation of Judaism that would indicate a rise in non Jews converting?

The whole "Jewish" isn't an ethnicity and Nimoy is a Russian name so Nimoy is ethnically Russian statements. Which to me indicates a lack of knowledge or understanding of the Jewish dispora and the Pogroms as a motivating force to Jewish migration and immigration throughout history.

But it's true. Being "Jewish" is increasingly not necessarily a question of ethnicity. And I'm basing it on migration/intermarriage patterns AND personal experience. Are you comprehending what I'm writing here or are you just off an a "huff-n-puff" tangent because I'm disagreeing with you on what seems to be a topic close to your ego. I am detecting a personal tone here. I might be wrong though. If so, I apologize.

What was really a funny coincidence was that yesterday I got a call at work from a scientist (an author in the climate journal I work for) who moved from India to Israel (1949) and then to the States (1962) and then we proceeded to have a long discussion on this very topic. The world is a magical place

I'm questioning what you're saying because its based on antedotal evidence. You claim its true yet produce no evidence other than "my friends" and a "co-worker". And you seem to think that enough to prove your point. You talk about migration patterns yet there's no data in your posts to support your position other than you saying so. So, again do you have a link to a study showing a significant increase in the number of people converting to Judaism. And does that show that the number of non-ethnic Jews will overtake the number of ethnic Jews? Is there also a study on migration patterns of Jews that would prove your point?

This has nothing to do with my "ego" and the topic is not one close to me in any sense. I'm not even Jewish.

 

[Nerys Myk]

As for the topic of Jewish vs Judaism... My opinion is this, you can't claim to be ethnically Israelite if your family has basically intermarried so much in the new homeland that the bloodline gets thinned out. It's like the old claim that a lot of people make saying they're Native American despite the fact that it maybe their great x 5 grandmother on their father's side that was the only Native American. Does that make any sense? Nimoy is ethnically Russian, his heritage is Jewish. It does not mean that he is from the Middle East as his family probably migrated to that region in Europe hundreds or so years prior and married into the natives there.

Unless we know Nimoy's specific ancentrial background we can't say that with any certainty. If his ancestors only or mostly married within the Jewish community then his background remains ethnically Jewish and nationally Russian. The wiki I linked to was a study showing

Genetic studies indicate various lineages found in modern Jewish populations; however, most of these populations share a lineage in common, traceable to an ancient population that underwent geographic branching and subsequent independent evolutions.[44] While DNA tests have demonstrated inter-marriage in all of the various Jewish ethnic divisions over the last 3,000 years, it was substantially less than in other populations.[45] The findings lend support to traditional Jewish accounts accrediting their founding to exiled Israelite populations, and counters theories that many or most of the world's Jewish populations were founded entirely by local populations that adopted the Jewish religion, devoid of any actual Israelite genetic input.[45][46]

Although individual and groups of converts to Judaism have historically been absorbed into contemporary Jewish populations, it is unlikely that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern Jewish groups, and much less that they represented their genesis as Jewish communities

 

[Cyke101]

And once again, mind control renders an act devoid of meaning.

 

[Merky]

As for the topic of Jewish vs Judaism... My opinion is this, you can't claim to be ethnically Israelite if your family has basically intermarried so much in the new homeland that the bloodline gets thinned out. It's like the old claim that a lot of people make saying they're Native American despite the fact that it maybe their great x 5 grandmother on their father's side that was the only Native American. Does that make any sense? Nimoy is ethnically Russian, his heritage is Jewish. It does not mean that he is from the Middle East as his family probably migrated to that region in Europe hundreds or so years prior and married into the natives there.

Unless we know Nimoy's specific ancentrial background we can't say that with any certainty. If his ancestors only or mostly married within the Jewish community then his background remains ethnically Jewish and nationally Russian. The wiki I linked to was a study showing

Genetic studies indicate various lineages found in modern Jewish populations; however, most of these populations share a lineage in common, traceable to an ancient population that underwent geographic branching and subsequent independent evolutions.[44] While DNA tests have demonstrated inter-marriage in all of the various Jewish ethnic divisions over the last 3,000 years, it was substantially less than in other populations.[45] The findings lend support to traditional Jewish accounts accrediting their founding to exiled Israelite populations, and counters theories that many or most of the world's Jewish populations were founded entirely by local populations that adopted the Jewish religion, devoid of any actual Israelite genetic input.[45][46]

Although individual and groups of converts to Judaism have historically been absorbed into contemporary Jewish populations, it is unlikely that they formed a large percentage of the ancestors of modern Jewish groups, and much less that they represented their genesis as Jewish communities

Fair point to be made, if only Nimoy actually looked ethnically Isreali -- but he doesn't. He looks Central European, maybe Slavic. Same applies to Shatner... while they are Jewish and there's Jewish in their blood, its there's so much diluting in the line that it can simply be traced back to ancestors centuries past. They are Jewish, yes, but they are more European/Central European/Russian than they are Israeli. I can not confine myself to the idea that the Jewish communities in Europe stayed secular amongst themselves without marrying outside their race or others coming into the communities and assimilating themselves.

So, we have a case of both, and you are right in what you say, but as for Nimoy and Shatner falling under that category? Highly unlikey. Especially Shatner.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think their outer appearence might be a minor part of their genetics. Judge. Book. Cover. As they say.

 

[Merky]

I think their outer appearence might be a minor part of their genetics. Judge. Book. Cover. As they say.

In definition of what defines a person, it does play a difference. Whatever ancestry one has does not negate what is not the predominant gene. If that were the case, everyone can run around saying they're African because we all share one common ancestor, Mitochondria Eve.

We can't simply be using the one-drop rule here to declare who people are, etc. Yes, Nimoy and Shatner are Jewish. It does not mean that they are 100% Israeli/Middle Eastern nor can they identify themselves as such. There is Russian, Austrian, German, etc genes running through their veins.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think their outer appearence might be a minor part of their genetics. Judge. Book. Cover. As they say.

In definition of what defines a person, it does play a difference. Whatever ancestry one has does not negate what is not the predominant gene. If that were the case, everyone can run around saying they're African because we all share one common ancestor, Mitochondria Eve.

We can't simply be using the one-drop rule here to declare who people are, etc. Yes, Nimoy and Shatner are Jewish. It does not mean that they are 100% Israeli/Middle Eastern nor can they identify themselves as such. There is Russian, Austrian, German, etc genes running through their veins.

That very well might be. But at the same time we cant go by the "Funny he doesn't look Jewish" concept either.Because that borders on stereotyping. Not all Middle Easterners look alike. One might find folks from that region that share certain facial features with Nimoy or Shatner. Only genetic testing would show just how ethnically Jewish Shatner or Nimoy might be.

 

[Merky]

I think their outer appearence might be a minor part of their genetics. Judge. Book. Cover. As they say.

In definition of what defines a person, it does play a difference. Whatever ancestry one has does not negate what is not the predominant gene. If that were the case, everyone can run around saying they're African because we all share one common ancestor, Mitochondria Eve.

We can't simply be using the one-drop rule here to declare who people are, etc. Yes, Nimoy and Shatner are Jewish. It does not mean that they are 100% Israeli/Middle Eastern nor can they identify themselves as such. There is Russian, Austrian, German, etc genes running through their veins.

That very well might be. But at the same time we cant go by the "Funny he doesn't look Jewish" concept either.Because that borders on stereotyping. Not all Middle Easterners look alike. One might find folks from that region that share certain facial features with Nimoy or Shatner. Only genetic testing would show just how ethnically Jewish Shatner or Nimoy might be.

Stereotyping? Depends when you look at those from the region and compare it to those who were born outside of those areas, you know? Apparently I look Filipino to a lot of people, but I'm actually Japanese/African American/Puerto Rican. I'm not going to fault them for making that assertion. Middle Easterns definitely do not look like Germans as those from Siberia don't look like those from Turkey. I think there are distinctive traits that each region of the world, that while you can pin point to a country, you can definitely figure out by the region alone - Central, Northern, Southern, Western Europe etc


But like you said, the only way you can figure out is if we sit these two guys down and ask them for their family trees. But until then, we can only go for what we see at face value.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In definition of what defines a person, it does play a difference. Whatever ancestry one has does not negate what is not the predominant gene. If that were the case, everyone can run around saying they're African because we all share one common ancestor, Mitochondria Eve.

We can't simply be using the one-drop rule here to declare who people are, etc. Yes, Nimoy and Shatner are Jewish. It does not mean that they are 100% Israeli/Middle Eastern nor can they identify themselves as such. There is Russian, Austrian, German, etc genes running through their veins.

That very well might be. But at the same time we cant go by the "Funny he doesn't look Jewish" concept either.Because that borders on stereotyping. Not all Middle Easterners look alike. One might find folks from that region that share certain facial features with Nimoy or Shatner. Only genetic testing would show just how ethnically Jewish Shatner or Nimoy might be.

Stereotyping? Depends when you look at those from the region and compare it to those who were born outside of those areas, you know? Apparently I look Filipino to a lot of people, but I'm actually Japanese/African American/Puerto Rican. I'm not going to fault them for making that assertion. Middle Easterns definitely do not look like Germans as those from Siberia don't look like those from Turkey. I think there are distinctive traits that each region of the world, that while you can pin point to a country, you can definitely figure out by the region alone - Central, Northern, Southern, Western Europe etc


But like you said, the only way you can figure out is if we sit these two guys down and ask them for their family trees. But until then, we can only go for what we see at face value.

I would disagree with that. Especially in areas with heavy migration. Britain alone has a mix of Germanic people from Northern Europe and Celts from Central and Southern Europe. A Briton can be dark like Catherine Zeta Jones or fair like Peter Davison. An Italian can look like Fabio or Federico Fellini. So perhaps those North, South Central and West distinctions aren't as clear cut.

 

[Merky]

Skin, hair, and eye color isn't where the traits end. Hair type, body type, little features in terms of nose, hands, hands, feet, jaw line, double eyelid, no eyelid, etc. There are traits that are only found in those regions that sets them apart.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Skin, hair, and eye color isn't where the traits end. Hair type, body type, little features in terms of nose, hands, hands, feet, jaw line, double eyelid, no eyelid, etc. There are traits that are only found in those regions that sets them apart.

Then why doesnt Fabio have the same nose and jawline as Fellini? Why do Catherine Tate and Catherine Zeta Jones look nothing alike?

Who has no eyelids????

 

[Merky]

Skin, hair, and eye color isn't where the traits end. Hair type, body type, little features in terms of nose, hands, hands, feet, jaw line, double eyelid, no eyelid, etc. There are traits that are only found in those regions that sets them apart.

Then why doesnt Fabio have the same nose and jawline as Fellini? Why do Catherine Tate and Catherine Zeta Jones look nothing alike?

I'm not saying that everyone will have the same exact features. I'm not saying that everyone is related. There are traits, similarities, that define regions and groups of people. Certain things will be more commonly found in one place but not the other.

You can tell the difference between someone from Philippines to someone from Vietnam as you can tell the difference between someone in India to someone who lives in Mongolia. Each region of the world does have genetic traits that accommodate the areas in which they live in. You can figure out where they from by certain, small, aesthetics.

Eurasia is not so ambiguously unified that you can't figure out if they're from Russia or if they're from Germany.

Who has no eyelids????

Asians have a term called double eyelids, it's usually the fold that a lot of us Asians lack. We get surgery to produce that eyelid. Probably the reason why they used the Chinese joke on Spock was because Nimoy lacks double eyelids.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm aware of these geographic traits, but I think you're simplifying them to the point of stereotyping.

It might be harder than you think:

Volga Germans

Today, there are approximately 600,000 ethnic Germans in Russia (Russian Census (2002)), a number that increases to 1.5 million when including people of partly German ancestry.

I thought an eyelid was the thing you blink with that has lashes on it. Pretty sure lacking that would be detrimental to survival

 

[Merky]

I'm aware of these geographic traits, but I think you're simplifying them to the point of stereotyping.

I'm not at all. The only way you can figure out someone's genetic ancestry is to do a DNA test or some other forms of testing or ask about their family tree. Without that, you can only go based upon observations. That is not stereotyping.

Stereotyping is " All white people have blonde hair, blue eyes and are tall. Asians are short. Black people can run really fast. Mexicans are all short people with black hair and brown eyes. "

I thought an eyelid was the thing you blink with that has lashes on it. Pretty sure lacking that would be detrimental to survival

You don't get it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=doub...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a