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How was Nero's anger going to save Romulus?

You're trying to turn lemons in to lemonade. Khan conceded because he lost. Kirk could have court martial him and turned him into Starfleet, but he gave Khan what he wanted and Khan agreed. He gave Khan a choice, mercy.

No, I'm just telling it like it is. Khan was going to be punished for his actions, whether formally or informally. Kirk decided on informal, and Khan just accepted that. It was not Khan's choice because we all know that his choice was to have the Enterprise.

Khan wasn't forced to be marooned on the planet.

What was his alternative? It was Kirk's decision to put him there, and I doubt Khan had any say in it.

Speculating and trying to rationalize someone who's insane and has been described as insane in the movie and has demonstrated behavioral patterns of someone who is insane.

Uh, what?
 
This is just going in circles and now we're completely off topic. I'll just repeat myself for the last time: It doesn't matter if Khan had a choice, if Khan accepted, if he didn't accept it, if he danced his way to the planet or flew there - A planet exploding and knocking his home world out of orbit has nothing to do with Kirk.


It's not like exploding planets are a daily occurrence or predictable. I'm pretty sure Kirk didn't deviously set out to throw Khan and one of his officers on a planet that was about to be shifted out of orbit.
 
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So you don't think a person who imprisons a criminal has any responsibility to check on that prisoner? Because that's what Khan was upset about.
 
The charges were dropped, Kirk was no longer responsible for Khan. Stop trying to make him responsible when the episode clearly states that Kirk rid himself of responsibility and McCoy seconded the motion.

KIRK: This hearing is now in session. Under the authority vested in me by Starfleet Command, I declare all charges and specifications in this matter have been dropped.
MCCOY: Jim. Agreed you have the authority

Kirk did not imprison him on that planet, Khan always wanted his own world:

KIRK: I'd like those answers now. First, the purpose of your star flight.
KHAN: A new life, a chance to build a world. Other things I doubt you would understand.

--

KHAN: [...] Your Captain will die. If you join me, Mister Spock, I will save his life. My vessel was useless. I need you and yours to select a colony planet. One with a population willing to be led by us.

And Kirk gave it to him:

KIRK: But no more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning. Those men went on to tame a continent, Mister Khan. Can you tame a world?
KHAN: Have you ever read Milton, Captain?
KIRK: Yes. I understand. Lieutenant Marla McGivers. Given a choice of court martial or accompanying them there.
---
KHAN: A superior woman. I will take her. And I've gotten something else I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build.
KIRK: This hearing is closed.

Dude, are you like selectively hearing what you want to hear from the episode? Anyway, I'm done repeating myself here.
 
If all charges were dropped, why was Khan and his crew exiled to that world? Why were they not allowed to go wherever they wish? That's not all charges dropped, it just means there would be no official hearing and sentence. Kirk knew he couldn't just turn these people free in any existing civilization because they represented a danger, so the best option he had was an unofficial sentence of exiling them to that planet.

Also, to say Khan always wanted his own world to live on with his comrades is pretty much untrue. He wanted a population to subjugate, and he was only going to work towards that goal. He was power hungry and constantly seeking that out. Having a barren planet was pretty much as far away from that as he could get, but it's what he had to settle for because he had no other option. That is punishment, and he was just making the best of it.
 
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So how about that Nero
 
This Khan/Nero comparison makes for very tiring reading.

I think you guys will have to agree to disagree on this.

Merky, you've been debating this for several days now. Big credit to you for holding up your argument.

My summary :-

Khan was angered at starfleet and Kirk for, leaving him on a dodgy planet and not checking up on him and his people. He was also clearly indignant to the fact that Kirk had even had a promotion.

Did Khan have cause for acts of revenge. Most definately yes.

Nero was angry at vulcans/starfleet/Spock because they failed to save his planet and family. He was not an intelligent person, he clearly had xenophobic tendencies. He was also driven mad by his long wait for revenge.

Did Nero have reason for revenge. Not entirely, but he was a simple person with nothing left but his anger and he had to direct that at something.

All in all, I think it's a mistake to compare the stories of tWoK and XI. Totally different villains with totally different agendas.
 
So I take it Romulus's solar system was not binary? That's what I assumed from the storyline. Otherwise a 'nearby' star would have been too far away.

A supernova can be several light years across. If a star near us went Nova, our solar system could be engulfed within a few decades.
 
So I take it Romulus's solar system was not binary? That's what I assumed from the storyline. Otherwise a 'nearby' star would have been too far away.

A supernova can be several light years across. If a star near us went Nova, our solar system could be engulfed within a few decades.

Within a few decades is the key. The film makes it seem like the stars explosion and engulfing of Romulus was near instantaneous.

A warp 8 supernova?
 
^In Star Trek's world? Yes. Remember Praxis?

But the film actually doesn't make the supernova seem instantaneous: The star explodes, then Spock meets with Romulan leadership, goes back to Vulcan, the Jellyfish is refitted and then he flies back to Romulus armed with Red Matter. Hence the days-long timespan in the Countdown comic.
 
The reason the supernova traveled so fast was because someone found one of Dr. Soran's leftover rockets. Now we can all sleep at night.
 
My theory, and this is taken from various extended stories, such as Star Trek: Online.

The Hobus supernova was not a natrual phenomenon. It was induced by a race that I won't mention because it's a spoiler.

This race calculated that a supernova of the Hobus star would create a bi-polar ejection that would travel directly into the Romulus system, destroying both Romulus and Remus.

They used sub-space technology to induce the supernove which would then carry the ejecta at FTL speeds towards Romulus.

Just to be clear, bi-polar ejections look like this :- http://www.crystalinks.com/supernova806.jpg

It's a shame it's not explained in the movies, but you could explain the destruction of Praxis in much the same way, that there was some kind of sub-space experiment to extract more ore or something like that.

Sorans missile was just silly. Maybe it had some mini warp drive on it or something?
 
^In Star Trek's world? Yes. Remember Praxis?

But the film actually doesn't make the supernova seem instantaneous: The star explodes, then Spock meets with Romulan leadership, goes back to Vulcan, the Jellyfish is refitted and then he flies back to Romulus armed with Red Matter. Hence the days-long timespan in the Countdown comic.

But then how does Nero know his wife is really dead? I can't believe an interstellar empire wouldn't have the assets to move a good portion of its' populace off-world in the intervening days between the star going nova and it reaching the Romulus system.

No one on Romulus was able to calculate how quickly the explosion was expanding and whether or not it was likely that Spock would be able to save it?
 
It seems the Romulans trusted Spock and the Federation to save them (or simply didn't believe them until it was too late, according to Countdown). Something obviously didn't go according to plan and the magical supernova acted faster than Spock antcipated. Spock pretty clearly blames himself for Romulus' demise in the movie.
 
It seems the Romulans trusted Spock and the Federation to save them (or simply didn't believe them until it was too late, according to Countdown). Something obviously didn't go according to plan and the magical supernova acted faster than Spock antcipated. Spock pretty clearly blames himself for Romulus' demise in the movie.

Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket... :lol:
 
Somehow I knew redshirts would come up. The difference is, you don't cast Eric Bana to be a redshirt. You don't bill a villain, the main driving force for the plot, as just some expendable nobody.
Why not? They did it with Commander Kruge, General Chang, Doctor Soran, Ruafo, Shinzon (and his viceroy). Do you really think Eric Bana is a better actor than Christopher Lloyd? I sure as hell don't.

I can think of movies where there are small numbers of characters, little time devoted to the 2d villain, and still that villain has more impact than Nero.
So can I. Primarily because most of those movies are "Hero vs. Villain" movies (Wrath of Khan, for example). STXI is not, and has other things it needed to focus on OTHER than the Nero vs. Spock angle.

At any rate, if the problem is that there are too many characters, then they're doing it wrong.
Says you. If you're creating a movie with the intention of establishing an entire cast of characters for future continuity, then this works just fine; the first threat they face is BOUND to be a shallow and undeveloped one and will only get any sort of depth and character in later productions.

Personally, I don't think it was necessary for them to include as many as they did and to try and give them each something meaningful to do. It would be like if X-Men introduced every mutant right away.
X-Men started with five mutants--Cyclops, Beast, Marvel Girl, Ice Man and Angel--and had them square off against Magneto in their very first issue. If they had KILLED magneto in that first encounter, we would never have known anything at all about him, but over time (over a VERY long time), Magneto later evolved into a multi-dimensional, fairly dynamic character, moving away from the "Card carrying villain" he was at first. In that sense, X-Men #1 established a main antagonist at the same time as the main heroes.

Nero could be developed into a more dimensional character with later productions, IF he survived the first movie. He didn't, and wasn't meant to, and we're left with the impression that we're probably not missing much. Disposable characters don't usually have that kind of potential; the single exception, of course, is Khan, who had so much going for him that they wound up bringing him back for a major motion picture. Ask yourself why they chose Khan instead of, say, Kang or Koloth or Kor or the Romulan Commander from the Enterprise Incident or the various other one-off bad guys Kirk had faced over the years. Ask yourself, also, if we know more about Nero than we do about the unnamed Romulan commander from Enterprise Incident, other than the fact that she had the hots for Spock (we don't even know her first name).

Perhaps they should have done that.
Why? They clearly had no intention of ever bringing Nero back for a second movie, so giving him development potential would be kind of a waste. He's just a glorified "terrorist of the month" for Jack Bauer to vanquish and move on with his life.

Mostly I was referring to Nero. But as far as the others, signing up to be a miner is not at all the same as joining a cult.
Can you really be sure about this, as far as Romulan society is concerned?

Power which was achieved by the genetic engineering.
In TOS, it was selective breeding, NOT genetic engineering. Those are two very different concepts.

So hijacking a ship without provocation and torturing its crew is perfectly sane?
It is according to George W. Bush.
 
So you don't think a person who imprisons a criminal has any responsibility to check on that prisoner? Because that's what Khan was upset about.
Khan was a megalomaniac asshole, who cares what he was upset about?

It's not like he had a justified reason to try and kill Kirk the FIRST time, so why are we so worried about his justification the SECOND? Khan kills people to get his way: it's how he lives, it's how he thinks, it's how he is recorded in the history books of the human race.

It's like asking why Hitler was so pissed off at the Jews. What difference does it make?


^In Star Trek's world? Yes. Remember Praxis?

But the film actually doesn't make the supernova seem instantaneous: The star explodes, then Spock meets with Romulan leadership, goes back to Vulcan, the Jellyfish is refitted and then he flies back to Romulus armed with Red Matter. Hence the days-long timespan in the Countdown comic.

But then how does Nero know his wife is really dead?
He doesn't. And considering his "It HAS happened! I saw it happen, don't tell me it didn't happen!" rant, I don't really think it matters. Romulus could have evacuated its entire population beforehand and Nero would still be pissed.
 
He doesn't. And considering his "It HAS happened! I saw it happen, don't tell me it didn't happen!" rant, I don't really think it matters. Romulus could have evacuated its entire population beforehand and Nero would still be pissed.

I can just imagine, a few days after the destruction of Romulus. Neros wife contacts him on sub-space, "Oh, honey, that was a close call, I just got out in time before.. before.. oh it was so terrible."

To which Nero replies, "No, your'e dead, it HAS happened, I SAW it happen, don't tell me it didn't happen!" As he hits the sub-space off button and continues on his way.

Next day, Nero burns some toast in the Naradas mess hall. He throws a hissy fit and one of his lieutenants gets him some more toast, "Here, sir. I got you some more toast, lightly done, just the way you like."

"NOO, it WAS burned, it happened, I SAW it happen, don't tell me it didn't happen!!". As he throws the toast to the ground.

And so, Neros life goes on in circles of denial.
 
Why not? They did it with Commander Kruge, General Chang, Doctor Soran, Ruafo, Shinzon (and his viceroy).

I don't feel like most of those were set up purely as fodder though. Like, some were imbued with character and a sense of purpose.

I feel like Nero could have had more of this, even with his limited screen time, but he feels like more of a throwaway character than those you listed.

So can I. Primarily because most of those movies are "Hero vs. Villain" movies (Wrath of Khan, for example). STXI is not, and has other things it needed to focus on OTHER than the Nero vs. Spock angle.

You don't understand what I said. I said that those villains got equal screen time to Nero, yet still worked out better. It doesn't matter how many other characters there were when they received the same amount of time.

Says you. If you're creating a movie with the intention of establishing an entire cast of characters for future continuity, then this works just fine

That's what I don't get. Star Trek's "full cast" was as billed, Shatner, Nimoy, Kelley. Everybody else was just a supporting role with no need for focus. They were unimportant. In this movie they tried to make everyone important and it makes it feel a little bit bloated. I wish they would have either made the movie longer, or saved a couple of the characters for later. I know that's probably not realistic though, given these writers.

X-Men started with five mutants

I was referring to the film.

Nero could be developed into a more dimensional character with later productions, IF he survived the first movie.

Again, there are movies where 2d villains got an equal amount of screen time and did not need any future productions to show their worth.

Ask yourself why they chose Khan instead of, say, Kang or Koloth or Kor or the Romulan Commander from the Enterprise Incident or the various other one-off bad guys Kirk had faced over the years.

Because there was a potential story to be told, and the way Space Seed wraps up essentially hints at that.

Why? They clearly had no intention of ever bringing Nero back for a second movie, so giving him development potential would be kind of a waste.

Many movies are made without the prospect of anybody ever coming back. Is that an excuse to have lame villains?

Can you really be sure about this, as far as Romulan society is concerned?

Nothing is impossible, but it's highly improbable.

In TOS, it was selective breeding, NOT genetic engineering. Those are two very different concepts.

I suppose it was, but you must admit that selective breeding does not explain Khan and his strength. Nor does it necessitate any real advanced science either. There had to be more to it than that given the context.
 
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