How was Nero's anger going to save Romulus?

[Ryan8bit]

Broader? I already was

Ok, point taken.

I did not believe it played a key part. Probably to the development of the war and to explain what Khan was but not: Genetic altering = Mentally insane totalitarian will be born

I think the idea given is that superior ability produces superior ambition. He wasn't arrogant just because, he was arrogant because it was a natural product of the tampering with his mind.

From the main cast, not from one episode villains.

I think if the villain was memorable enough it can work.

Spock arrived too late to save Romulus. That in itself is failing to go by his word and save the planet. Nero thought he would save his planet and Spock failed to do so. Spock was, then, indirectly responsible for Romulus from Nero's perception.

Spock had no obligation to Romulus or its safety. He didn't put them in harm's way. Kirk having obligation to Khan is debatable (personally, I think if the Federation exiles somebody dangerous, they should probably keep tabs on them). He technically did put them in harm's way.

I believe Khan being stranded was kept off of the records, wasn't it?

So because they were, why would Starfleet be involved? Starfleet did not even know of their existence.

I don't know. It doesn't really make sense to not have any record of something of such importance. Just because they dropped charges doesn't mean they erased all their logs and never reported it to Starfleet.

That he agreed to

He agreed to somewhat difficult conditions, not dire conditions.

He was pissed off for 25 years, that isn't short.

He endured one event that he had the potential to change. With that opportunity, that he sulked for 25 years isn't the fault of anybody but himself. If Khan were given the choice to change how things went, I don't think he would act the same. That's the big difference with time travel.

 

[Merky]

I believe Khan being stranded was kept off of the records, wasn't it?

No... way... possible. The Enterprise was missing an officer at the end of Space Seed, Kirk had to explain that.

Easy, she died. She deflected. She abandoned her post. She was MIA. Considering the countless amount of officers that have died or mysteriously disappeared during the course of their mission - it is completely plausible that he wrote her off as someone that "disappeared" mysteriously on a mission.

 

[BillJ]

I believe Khan being stranded was kept off of the records, wasn't it?

No... way... possible. The Enterprise was missing an officer at the end of Space Seed, Kirk had to explain that.

Easy, she died. She deflected. She abandoned her post. She was MIA. Considering the countless amount of officers that have died or mysteriously disappeared during the course of their mission - it is completely plausible that he wrote her off as someone that "disappeared" mysteriously on a mission.

You also have to have 430 others agree with you, including Spock (who doesn't lie).

Captain's log, stardate 3141.9. A full hour has elapsed since interception of the strange vessel. Our presence alongside is still being completely ignored. Although our sensors continue to show signs of equipment and life aboard, there has been no indication of danger to us.

Captain's log, supplemental. Alongside the SS Botany Bay for ten hours now. A boarding party of engineering and medical specialists are now completing their examination of the mysterious vessel. Attempts to revive other sleepers await our success or failure with the casualty already beamed over. Doctor McCoy is frankly amazed at his physical and recuperative power.

Captain's Log. Stardate 3143.3. Control of the Enterprise has been regained. I wish my next decisions were no more difficult. Khan and his people. What a waste to put them in a reorientation centre. And what do I do about McGivers?

If I'm not mistaken these are are part of the ship's official record, since they're not personal logs.

 

[Merky]

That he agreed to

He agreed to somewhat difficult conditions, not dire conditions.

Kirk did not maroon Khan. Khan willing decided to be placed on the planet.

Kirk did not pick a wasteland to throw Khan on. That happened afterwards. A natual disaster.

Kirk is not responsible for what happens after Khan was put on the planet. Just like how Spock was not responsible for a supernova consuming Romulus. He was unable to get there in time, yes, but he did not cause the tragedy to happen. Spock nor Kirk or at fault.

That is the point I'm trying to make.

He endured one event that he had the potential to change. With that opportunity, that he sulked for 25 years isn't the fault of anybody but himself. If Khan were given the choice to change how things went, I don't think he would act the same. That's the big difference with time travel.

Nero couldn't change the events because Nero was slammed back 120 something odd years into the past. It wasn't like he was transported two, three, or even a week before the Supernova. That is a century of events, who knows how important that star is to Romulan space. Who knows what would happen to the planets directly around that star if Nero took it out.

Yeah, Nero could have waited 120 years to save the day. He had the device... But this man lost his family, friends, home, job, wife, and child. His world was gone. Life was erased.

I do not understand how Khan being marooned on some stupid planet justifies him being "insane" but Nero loosing EVERYTHING is considered unjustifiable anger and resentment? Khan could have packed up and started life on a new planet. He did not have to chase after Kirk because Kirk was not responsible for his problems.

Two villains were driven mad by the actions of Kirk and Spock. There is no justifiable excuse to their actions and trying to find a reason to excuse one over the other is ridiculous.

If I'm not mistaken these are are part of the ship's official record, since they're not personal logs.

She willing, then, deflected and resigned? There's now a glaring plothole now in the story. But that's for another thread and topic.

 

[BillJ]

Two villains were driven mad by the actions of Kirk and Spock. There is no justifiable excuse to their actions and trying to find a reason to excuse one over the other is ridiculous.

Kirk actually set events in motion. There is no way anyone can debate that... sorry.

She willing, then, deflected and resigned? There's now a glaring plothole now in the story. But that's for another thread and topic.

I'm not sure how that's a plot hole? Please enlighten the ignorant masses...

 

[Merky]

Two villains were driven mad by the actions of Kirk and Spock. There is no justifiable excuse to their actions and trying to find a reason to excuse one over the other is ridiculous.

Kirk actually set events in motion. There is no way anyone can debate that... sorry.

How can you blame someone for something that occurs after the fact? That's like saying that it's the cruise line's fault for docking in St. Thomas and your entire vacation on the island turned to shit because of a hurricane. It's not the cruise liner's fault that St. Thomas got hit with a hurricane.

Or that your package got lost in the mail and you're going to go ahead and blame the carrier AND the company you purchased the product from because they didn't pick FedEX and decided to use the USPS.

Like, sit there and really think about one.

I'm not sure how that's a plot hole? Please enlighten the ignorant masses...

Ceti Alpha VI exploded shifting Ceti Alpha V's orbit. Starfleet should have known this and yet they mistakenly believed that Ceti Alpha V was Ceti Alpha VI.

If Starfleet knew that there was a group of "exiles" on a planet within the system then they should have reacted, or at least known that a planet had completely disappeared off of the star charts -- especially if your trying to do a major terra forming experiment that involves destroy all life on it to recreate it.

It makes no sense.

 

[Trilliam]

The "paperwork" relating to the whole "Space Seed" incident were lost? Filed under the wrong letter? The file path is corrupted? A 404 error?

 

[Merky]

The "paperwork" relating to the whole "Space Seed" incident were lost? Filed under the wrong letter? The file path is corrupted? A 404 error?

Mmmm plotholes.

 

[Trilliam]

The "paperwork" relating to the whole "Space Seed" incident were lost? Filed under the wrong letter? The file path is corrupted? A 404 error?

Mmmm plotholes.

I was thinking more "Yes, Mininster"/ "Yes, Prime Minister" fashion.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Kirk did not maroon Khan. Khan willing decided to be placed on the planet.

Khan didn't willingly go to the planet. If he had his will, he would've taken the ship. But since he messed up and knew he was defeated, he accepted his punishment. And that's what it was. It was definitely not ideal.

Kirk is not responsible for what happens after Khan was put on the planet. Just like how Spock was not responsible for a supernova consuming Romulus. He was unable to get there in time, yes, but he did not cause the tragedy to happen. Spock nor Kirk or at fault.

It's the equivalent of throwing prisoners on an island and not being called responsible when some of them kill each other. It's negligence.

Nero couldn't change the events because Nero was slammed back 120 something odd years into the past. It wasn't like he was transported two, three, or even a week before the Supernova. That is a century of events, who knows how important that star is to Romulan space. Who knows what would happen to the planets directly around that star if Nero took it out.

Who knows what will happen to the Romulan Empire with any of his interference. They could end up conquered by the Dominion or any other number of enemies. He was obviously still quite youthful and he had time to wait, if not the ability to time travel back.

I do not understand how Khan being marooned on some stupid planet justifies him being "insane" but Nero loosing EVERYTHING is considered unjustifiable anger and resentment? Khan could have packed up and started life on a new planet. He did not have to chase after Kirk because Kirk was not responsible for his problems.

What did Nero lose that Khan didn't? Did he not have the same options to start the same new life?

Having been involved with time travel, he now had an idea and possibly the means to return to his time.

 

[Trilliam]

What did Nero lose that Khan didn't? Did he not have the same options to start the same new life?

Well, for starters, Nero didn't have the genetically engineered superior intellect nor the genetically engineered "super" physique of Khan.

 

[Merky]

Kirk did not maroon Khan. Khan willing decided to be placed on the planet.

Khan didn't willingly go to the planet. If he had his will, he would've taken the ship. But since he messed up and knew he was defeated, he accepted his punishment. And that's what it was. It was definitely not ideal.

You're trying to turn lemons in to lemonade. Khan conceded because he lost. Kirk could have court martial him and turned him into Starfleet, but he gave Khan what he wanted and Khan agreed. He gave Khan a choice, mercy.

KIRK: But no more than Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning. Those men went on to tame a continent, Mister Khan. Can you tame a world?
KHAN: Have you ever read Milton, Captain?
KIRK: Yes. I understand. Lieutenant Marla McGivers. Given a choice of court martial or accompanying them there.
KHAN: (gazing into her eyes) It will be difficult. A struggle at first even to stay alive, to find food.
MARLA: I'll go with him, sir.
KHAN: A superior woman. I will take her. And I've gotten something else I wanted. A world to win, an empire to build.

Khan wasn't forced to be marooned on the planet. He liked the idea, he knew what he was getting into. AGAIN, whatever acts of God that happened afterwards bares no negativity on Kirk. His anger is unjustifiable.

Who knows what will happen to the Romulan Empire with any of his interference. They could end up conquered by the Dominion or any other number of enemies. He was obviously still quite youthful and he had time to wait, if not the ability to time travel back.

Speculating and trying to rationalize someone who's insane and has been described as insane in the movie and has demonstrated behavioral patterns of someone who is insane. What could have been, would have been does not negate the fact that Nero is insane.

Having been involved with time travel, he now had an idea and possibly the means to return to his time.

Wild speculations. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Trilliam]

Australia's Botany Bay colony was at the beginning

Makes me laugh - Cook came ashore at Botany Bay in 1770, BUT the colony actually established in Pt Jackson (on the shores of Sydney Harbour) when Arthur Phillip & the First Fleet in 1788. Phillip spent a week in the site (now know as Kurnell) recommended by Cook, then moved to look for better water and soils found in and around Sydney Harbour (eg The Tank Stream).

 

[Saquist]

But he doesn't Kill Kirk or Pike or Spock nor does he destroy the Enterprise the two times he has opportunity to do so.

He did far worse than kill Kirk, Pike or Spock - he hurt them, and in Spock's case by killing his mother & destroying his homeworld, Spock will continue hurt psychologically, Pike - physically....

Kirk, by inference was "hurt"/haunted his whole life by his father's death.


"Bang the rocks together, Guys."

Dear Super Villian,

Thanks for sparing my life so I could stop you later, I really don't know what I would have done if you hadn't left me to your disruptor incompetent subordinate. Many glad tidings to you from me Spock and Admiral Pike.

Sincerely
James T. Kirk...

 

[Trilliam]

But he doesn't Kill Kirk or Pike or Spock nor does he destroy the Enterprise the two times he has opportunity to do so.

He did far worse than kill Kirk, Pike or Spock - he hurt them, and in Spock's case by killing his mother & destroying his homeworld, Spock will continue hurt psychologically, Pike - physically....

Kirk, by inference was "hurt"/haunted his whole life by his father's death.


"Bang the rocks together, Guys."

Dear Super Villian,

Thanks for sparing my life so I could stop you later, I really don't know what I would have done if you hadn't left me to your disruptor incompetent subordinate. Many glad tidings to you from me Spock and Admiral Pike.

Sincerely
James T. Kirk...

I was playing with the exchange between Khan on the Excelsior and Kirk in the Genesis Cave. With a biit of Douglas Adams thrown in.

 

[Saquist]

He did far worse than kill Kirk, Pike or Spock - he hurt them, and in Spock's case by killing his mother & destroying his homeworld, Spock will continue hurt psychologically, Pike - physically....

Kirk, by inference was "hurt"/haunted his whole life by his father's death.


"Bang the rocks together, Guys."

Dear Super Villian,

Thanks for sparing my life so I could stop you later, I really don't know what I would have done if you hadn't left me to your disruptor incompetent subordinate. Many glad tidings to you from me Spock and Admiral Pike.

Sincerely
James T. Kirk...

I was playing with the exchange between Khan on the Excelsior and Kirk in the Genesis Cave. With a biit of Douglas Adams thrown in.

Ah...
Still the story would have been far more enjoyable if not for Nero's contrived behavior. I say create a personae and stick to it.

I think some have said that Khan had the opportunity to kill Kirk and the Enterprise at his mercy but he passed. But it's not far-fetched to believe your villain want his cake and eat it too. But it is when he continually lets you get away.

Perhaps that was the biggest spoiler for the movie despite the who Super Pseudo Science and the silly comic relief. Everyone likes a little fun but I wish there was just some...realistic portion to the movie.

 

[Trilliam]

I've done far worse than kill you, I've hurt you. And I wish to go on hurting you.

You didn't get that? And you call yourself a fan

But it is when he continually lets you get away.

That's because Khan was a poor marksman, he kept missing the target.

 

[Trilliam]

Dear Super Villian,

Thanks for sparing my life so I could stop you later, I really
Perhaps that was the biggest spoiler for the movie despite the who Super Pseudo Science and the silly comic relief. Everyone likes a little fun but I wish there was just some...realistic portion to the movie.

If it were a doco or docu-drama, then yes some semblance to fact would be nice. It is, however fiction/fantasy - by its very nature requiring the suspention of disbelief to operate. How is the Pseudo science of the 2009 movie any worse than any other Trek iteration?

 

[Saquist]

Dear Super Villian,

Thanks for sparing my life so I could stop you later, I really
Perhaps that was the biggest spoiler for the movie despite the who Super Pseudo Science and the silly comic relief. Everyone likes a little fun but I wish there was just some...realistic portion to the movie.

If it were a doco or docu-drama, then yes some semblance to fact would be nice. It is, however fiction/fantasy - by its very nature requiring the suspention of disbelief to operate. How is the Pseudo science of the 2009 movie any worse than any other Trek iteration?

It can be more easily mocked....

 

[Trilliam]

It can be more easily mocked....

You reckon?