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stupidest remake yet...Miss Marple, the hot babe!

Similarly, Holmes is known for his pioneering forensic techniques and for being the world's first consulting detective.
I don't think most people's understanding of Holmes goes that far. Holmes is simply the world's greatest detective. And, having read most of the original Doyle stories, quite a few of those don't rely on any kind of forensics to solve the case. He just makes astute observations and is smarter than everyone else.

If you renamed the BBC Sherlock something else, everyone would be calling it "the modern day Sherlock Holmes", so I don't see why you'd object to calling it Sherlock. I wouldn't object at all to putting Miss Marple in the modern era (Christie herself wrote her in whatever year the book was published), either.

Holmes is an immortal literary character and inspiration in great part because his premise is so versatile.
 
. . . But, what is contemporary for Romeo and Juliet? When it was first performed it was performed in contemporary clothes. Contemporary for it's time. The play wasn't a historical. So, why should we treat it as such NOW?
Shakespeare can work in all sorts of period settings and backgrounds. Baz Luhrmann’s 1996 Romeo + Juliet (spelled with a plus sign for no discernible reason) was an interesting idea for doing the classic play in a modern setting. Unfortunately it was undone by weak acting by its principal stars and silly visual gimmicks like speed-ramping which already make the picture look dated.

Exactly. On both counts. (though, I have to say, I was surprised, and as a Shakespeare lover, thrilled Luhrmann's R&J did so well.)

Thomas Edison inventing the light bulb isn't his CHARACTER though. It was an event that happened in his life. His determination, how he behaved, how he over came his deafness to be a great inventor, THAT'S his character.
But specific inventions, like the light bulb, are what he is known for; that's what makes him noteworthy.

Exactly. That makes him NOTEWORTHY, but that doesn't describe his CHARACTER. His character pushed him to become noteworthy.

Similarly, Holmes is known for his pioneering forensic techniques and for being the world's first consulting detective. These attributes cannot be transplanted to the 21st Century.

His pioneering techniques, I agree. However, those, for me, weren't his domineering characteristics. His ruthlessness for logic, his eye for seeing detail that others missed, his ability to add all facts together that seem to baffle us mere mortals, his desire for intellectual stimulation, and his use of drugs when he didn't get it. These are characteristics that can be easily transported.

But, what is contemporary for Romeo and Juliet? When it was first performed it was performed in contemporary clothes. Contemporary for it's time. The play wasn't a historical. So, why should we treat it as such NOW?
The archaic and poetic language, for one thing. Performing Shakespeare in contemporary accouterments is an anachronism; it can be a novelty, sure, but it's not really what I'm talking about anyway-- I've said that certain concepts are more mobile than others (with "why" being the remaining question).

Novelty suggests that it's not done very often. Contemporary clothing has been done for a long long time.

But it IS what you are talking about. You say lifting a character from his or her time period changes the character. I've seen Taming of the Shrew in 1950s Italy, with mopeds and the works, you would say, to use your reasoning, those are different characters. And I'm saying it's NOT. Now, you're saying certain concepts are more mobile than others.

So, which concepts?
 
The era a character is set in is sometimes a defining characteristic but not always. Indiana Jones was born in 1899, and his adventures unfold over the course of the 20th Century. He can't be transplanted, it just doesn't work. Mostly because he was created as a period piece. Many other characters however can be transplanted without incident. This is because they were set contemporary to the time they were written.
 
Good point - the fact that Indy seems "wrong" in a Cold War setting with Soviets, aliens and nukes can be attributed to the fact that he was based on B-movies from the 30s. Anything after 1945 just doesn't work with him. They tried, doing the "logical" thing, transporting him into the dominant type of B-movie of the 50s, namely the paranoid, alien-centric thriller, but it's not the same because the movie types don't have enough overlap. A new character would need to be invented, to fit the 50s style.
 
Who's to say Marple wasn't a hot babe at 30? Christie never wrote it, but i'm quite sure she wasn't born an old lady.

This sounds less like a remake than simply using a name to market a different concept, I don't have a problem with it.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. I'm actually a huge Marple fan and read a lot of Agatha Christie, but I don't have a problem with this. The books are the books and the movie is obviously going to be quite different. Doesn't really ruin anything. I'm actually interested to see what a young Miss Marple would be like, plus I like Jennifer Garner a lot.
 
Good point - the fact that Indy seems "wrong" in a Cold War setting with Soviets, aliens and nukes can be attributed to the fact that he was based on B-movies from the 30s. Anything after 1945 just doesn't work with him. They tried, doing the "logical" thing, transporting him into the dominant type of B-movie of the 50s, namely the paranoid, alien-centric thriller, but it's not the same because the movie types don't have enough overlap. A new character would need to be invented, to fit the 50s style.

I disagree. It seemed wrong not because Indy couldn't be in the 1950s, but because the tone of the movie was off. It was more in the execution than in the choice of subject.
 
But then why call him Edison?

Why not?

Or, to put it another way, they don't have to justify it. They can because they want to.
Of course they can. That's not the issue. Similarly, I can disagree with the integrity of the choice. :D

I don't think most people's understanding of Holmes goes that far. Holmes is simply the world's greatest detective.
This is true. The average audience member will care nothing of that, nor give any thought to the ramifications of a world where Holmes not only exists, but was born 120 years later.

If you renamed the BBC Sherlock something else, everyone would be calling it "the modern day Sherlock Holmes", so I don't see why you'd object to calling it Sherlock. I wouldn't object at all to putting Miss Marple in the modern era (Christie herself wrote her in whatever year the book was published), either.
Monk and the guy on Psych, as well as a few others (including the doctor on House), are all modern-day Sherlocks. Any one of those creators could have made the decision to call their character Sherlock Holmes; I think it would have been a bad decision and that it makes the characters better to be completely original.

Exactly. That makes him NOTEWORTHY, but that doesn't describe his CHARACTER. His character pushed him to become noteworthy.
Sure. But somebody's life is more than that. Edison would be a different person if he were a young man today. The character of Zorro as we know him could not exist in 2011. The same goes for Sherlock Holmes.

His pioneering techniques, I agree. However, those, for me, weren't his domineering characteristics. His ruthlessness for logic, his eye for seeing detail that others missed, his ability to add all facts together that seem to baffle us mere mortals, his desire for intellectual stimulation, and his use of drugs when he didn't get it. These are characteristics that can be easily transported.
True, and as I said, your mileage may vary. Those characteristics are intrinsic to Holmes, in my opinion, but they are not the entirety of his character.

Novelty suggests that it's not done very often. Contemporary clothing has been done for a long long time.
I still think it's the novelty factor. Many millions, or at least thousands, of people who would nod off to Shakespeare in the park will go and listen to incomprehensible dialogue if there are skyscrapers, pistols, convertibles, trendy music and popular contemporary actors in it.

But it IS what you are talking about. You say lifting a character from his or her time period changes the character. I've seen Taming of the Shrew in 1950s Italy, with mopeds and the works, you would say, to use your reasoning, those are different characters. And I'm saying it's NOT. Now, you're saying certain concepts are more mobile than others.

So, which concepts?
I've said that all along. As to which ones, it's obviously a case by case thing. And pretty much anything will require some changes. It makes more sense to do West Side Story than to perform Romeo and Juliet in contemporary dress. When you do Fantastic Four in the 21st century, you can't have them talking about beating the commies to the Moon, but otherwise it's not a bad fit. The Shadow would be awkward but doable. Zorro would make no sense at all. My overriding question remains the same: Why not either be true to the character or just make up an original character?

Good point - the fact that Indy seems "wrong" in a Cold War setting with Soviets, aliens and nukes can be attributed to the fact that he was based on B-movies from the 30s. Anything after 1945 just doesn't work with him. They tried, doing the "logical" thing, transporting him into the dominant type of B-movie of the 50s, namely the paranoid, alien-centric thriller, but it's not the same because the movie types don't have enough overlap. A new character would need to be invented, to fit the 50s style.
While I disagree with that particular example-- that was the appropriate era for Indy at that age, just as "His Last Bow" was for Holmes-- you're getting the gist of what I'm saying.
 
But then why call him Edison?

Why not?

Or, to put it another way, they don't have to justify it. They can because they want to.


And because certain names have more cachet, emotional resonance, and marquee value than any old random name.

Which book would you rather read?

Thomas Edison on Mars.

Or,

Harrison Simpson on Mars.


I don't know about you, but the former sounds a lot more fun and outrageous. And has a much catchier title.

(Says the guy who once sold a story in which Dan Quayle turned out to be a time-traveler from the future!)
 
Then there is the whole matter of Edison being a real person.
Well, he just happened to pop into my head. How about Zorro fighting Spanish colonialism in 21st Century California? Call me crazy, but I think that would be pretty silly.
Thats because there is no Spanish colonialism in 21st Century California, but there is crime in 21st Century London and there for a need for an eccentric consulting detective who's smarter than the police.
 
]I've said that all along. As to which ones, it's obviously a case by case thing. And pretty much anything will require some changes. It makes more sense to do West Side Story than to perform Romeo and Juliet in contemporary dress.

I disagree. Because, while West Side Story is based on Romeo and Juliet, it's an entirely different thing. Regardless of what clothes Romeo wears.

When you do Fantastic Four in the 21st century, you can't have them talking about beating the commies to the Moon, but otherwise it's not a bad fit.

The Communists don't really exist anymore. And in fact, the Fantastic Four's origins have been updated to pretty much leave that part out. But, then, using your reasoning, that actually makes them entirely different characters.

But, in truth, it doesn't. Because the characteristics of Reed are the same, be he written in 1965 or in 2010.

The Shadow would be awkward but doable. Zorro would make no sense at all. My overriding question remains the same: Why not either be true to the character or just make up an original character?

What is TRUE to the character? The location/time period? As above, the Fantastic Four were first created in the early 60s in the shadow of the Cold War, they had to beat the Commie's to space, their origins are different now through reboots. Does that make them any more or less the Fantastic Four?

Or is staying true to a character how they behave? How they relate to each other? How they react to a crisis?
 
Thats because there is no Spanish colonialism in 21st Century California, but there is crime in 21st Century London and there for a need for an eccentric consulting detective who's smarter than the police.
But there's no need for someone to invent forensics or be the world's first consulting detective.

I disagree. Because, while West Side Story is based on Romeo and Juliet, it's an entirely different thing. Regardless of what clothes Romeo wears.
It's Romeo and Juliet appropriate to a different time and place.

The Communists don't really exist anymore. And in fact, the Fantastic Four's origins have been updated to pretty much leave that part out. But, then, using your reasoning, that actually makes them entirely different characters.
Communists do still exist, but I was asked which characters are more portable than others. The Fantastic Four is not as out of place in the 21st Century as Sherlock Holmes.

What is TRUE to the character? The location/time period? As above, the Fantastic Four were first created in the early 60s in the shadow of the Cold War, they had to beat the Commie's to space, their origins are different now through reboots. Does that make them any more or less the Fantastic Four?

Or is staying true to a character how they behave? How they relate to each other? How they react to a crisis?
All of these things. Which characteristics are more important depends on the characters and the concept.
 
what makes Holmes and what made Sherlock work for me, was the bit in "A Study in Pink" when he looks at the body of the woman and does all that deductive work and puts it altogether that she's having an affair, she came from Cardiff and she'd been using an umbrella (that's missing) and Lestrade and Watson are completely befuddled at how he figured it all out.

he used his brain and saw things that were obvious to him, yet they CLEARLY missed.
 
what makes Holmes and what made Sherlock work for me, was the bit in "A Study in Pink" when he looks at the body of the woman and does all that deductive work and puts it altogether that she's having an affair, she came from Cardiff and she'd been using an umbrella (that's missing) and Lestrade and Watson are completely befuddled at how he figured it all out.

he used his brain and saw things that were obvious to him, yet they CLEARLY missed.


But how dare they update Watson to have him wounded in Afghanistan!

Oh wait . . . .
 
^^ That was amusing, in a sad way.

what makes Holmes and what made Sherlock work for me, was the bit in "A Study in Pink" when he looks at the body of the woman and does all that deductive work and puts it altogether that she's having an affair, she came from Cardiff and she'd been using an umbrella (that's missing) and Lestrade and Watson are completely befuddled at how he figured it all out.

he used his brain and saw things that were obvious to him, yet they CLEARLY missed.
He's not the only character who can do that, though.
 
what makes Holmes and what made Sherlock work for me, was the bit in "A Study in Pink" when he looks at the body of the woman and does all that deductive work and puts it altogether that she's having an affair, she came from Cardiff and she'd been using an umbrella (that's missing) and Lestrade and Watson are completely befuddled at how he figured it all out.

he used his brain and saw things that were obvious to him, yet they CLEARLY missed.
He's not the only character who can do that, though.
So?

He's still quite identifiably Sherlock Holmes. If you changed the names, everybody would say it's clearly Sherlock Holmes.

And I really don't get this contention that being the first is somehow crucial to Holmes' character. I can't recall a single story where "I'm the first consulting detective and forensics specialist" came up; he's simply the best, in any era, and that's why he's important.
 
Performing Shakespeare in contemporary accouterments is an anachronism; it can be a novelty

I have to ask: what's wrong with novelty? There have already been five zillion gaslit Holmes adaptations (and there will doubtless be many more), so why not do something different and set Holmes in the world of cell phones and text messaging--just for the fun of it?
 
Shakespeare's plays were performed in contemporary dress at the Globe, anyway; it's not remotely new. Loncraine's Richard III and Branagh's Hamlet are two of the best Shakespeare adaptations to film, and they both move the time around.
 
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