Captains....

[RyuRoots]

Side note... Who would ever agree to commanding a Miranda class...

A better question is "Who would agree to commanding an Oberth-class?"

In Starfleet I don't think a captain has a CHOICE where he gets posted to. For example:
"Captain Blah, you're being posted to the USS One Shot an Oberth class......"
"OBERTH!?!?! No F%%king WAY those things are worse than Pintos you know!

You don't get to tell off Starfleet that Oberth's suck or Miranda's are trash and you simply won't be a captain unless you get a better ship. Some how I don't think that is how it works.

It should have been obvious, I think, but the "agreeing to" was a joke. At least it was when I reiterated it. The Oberth really is ridiculously pathetic, though.

 

[od0_ital]

Side note... Who would ever agree to commanding a Miranda class...

A better question is "Who would agree to commanding an Oberth-class?"

In Starfleet I don't think a captain has a CHOICE where he gets posted to...

Unless your name is "Riker," then ya can tell Starfleet to go to hell & plant your ass wherever ya want 'til something top of the line comes out.

 

[Crewman47]

you would think that due to there size, ships like the Oberth, Nova and Miranda would be commanded by ltCmdrs or commanders, as it is i assume in todays navies?

 

[C.E. Evans]

I agree that there would be a minimum standard for defensive capability for any "Starfleet vessel". Hell, we've seen non-Starfleet ships roughed up plenty of times, so I assume that even they carry some form of defensive measures.

On the Grissom, though... the BoP got the jump on them initially, but then there was this HUGE pause before they actually fired... almost twenty seconds go by. It's pretty much a given that they raised their shields. Which, thus, means that the Grissom was taken out with ONE TORPEDO with full shields. And the Klingons were trying not to destroy the ship at the time. It's one of the dumbest moments in the film.

Or it could just mean that the Klingons had a new torpedo that could overwhelm the shields of Federation starships and Grissom was hit in its most vulnerable spot. Lessons learned from Grissom's demise, may have gone into improving the Oberth-class design as well as Federation shields, IMO.

Exactly Sonak. Not defenceless, but equally not 'armed to the teeth'. You can argue in STIII Kruge got the jump on them so weren't able to defend themselves. But no way would anyone in right mind send Oberth up against Borg unless desperate. Not an offensive ship. I think upgrading of later science classes like Nova and Lunar is as result of TMP encounters and natural evolution/sending ships into deep territories further from SF command so couldn't call for assistance so have to defend themselves...

I don't think anyone here has said that the Oberth-class was designed with heavy combat in mind, but its presence at both Wolf 359 and Sector 001 does suggest that it can be called upon for that if necessary, so it might not be as completely worthless as some would think, IMO. Its combat rating may the lowest in the fleet for all we know, but in such instances they were called for battle they likely served merely as extra guns, probably mostly providing cover fire for other ships.

Maybe not completely worthless, but close to it. It's almost a hundred year-old design as of Wolf 359, and wasn't exactly a sturdy class even in its prime if TSFS is any indication.

I don't think Starfleet would keep a design for a century (or more) if it wasn't sound. That still doesn't mean the Oberth was a good combat vessel, but the design may have been improved upon since Star Trek III so that it's not quite that vulnerable anymore.

I think it was only present at Wolf 359 because Starfleet didn't expect a fleet of 40 to be massacred THAT badly, and was probably only there as a support ship. As for FC, at that point, the cube was on Earth's doorstep and still in decent shape, so it makes sense that they would have entered "If you can fly and shoot, then fly up here and start shooting" mode. Other than that kind of extreme, doomsday-type scenario, I don't think it would be sent into any combat situations.

That's really exactly my point. It's probably not a design really optimized for combat, but in an emergency it can do that. Perhaps not as well as other ships, but that's almost a moot issue in a crisis situation when Starfleet needs as many armed ships as possible.

you would think that due to there size, ships like the Oberth, Nova and Miranda would be commanded by ltCmdrs or commanders, as it is i assume in todays navies?

I think one of the ways Starfleet differs from today's navies is that the size of a starship is irrelevant, the CO will always be a captain's billet. The XO, though, might be another matter...

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

I agree that there would be a minimum standard for defensive capability for any "Starfleet vessel". Hell, we've seen non-Starfleet ships roughed up plenty of times, so I assume that even they carry some form of defensive measures.

On the Grissom, though... the BoP got the jump on them initially, but then there was this HUGE pause before they actually fired... almost twenty seconds go by. It's pretty much a given that they raised their shields. Which, thus, means that the Grissom was taken out with ONE TORPEDO with full shields. And the Klingons were trying not to destroy the ship at the time. It's one of the dumbest moments in the film.

Or it could just mean that the Klingons had a new torpedo that could overwhelm the shields of Federation starships and Grissom was hit in its most vulnerable spot. Lessons learned from Grissom's demise, may have gone into improving the Oberth-class design as well as Federation shields, IMO.

So the Federation will just improve its shields, just like that? "OK, we know how to do it, but we won't implement it until we need it. So for now, YAY, 60% max proven shield capacity for all!" I would think that the oberth would have had the best it could when it was built. But seeing as how those weren't the most recent ships, there may be better. So it could get an overhaul for the shields. But the Feds can't just make a better shield than anything they've already got overnight.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I agree that there would be a minimum standard for defensive capability for any "Starfleet vessel". Hell, we've seen non-Starfleet ships roughed up plenty of times, so I assume that even they carry some form of defensive measures.

On the Grissom, though... the BoP got the jump on them initially, but then there was this HUGE pause before they actually fired... almost twenty seconds go by. It's pretty much a given that they raised their shields. Which, thus, means that the Grissom was taken out with ONE TORPEDO with full shields. And the Klingons were trying not to destroy the ship at the time. It's one of the dumbest moments in the film.

Or it could just mean that the Klingons had a new torpedo that could overwhelm the shields of Federation starships and Grissom was hit in its most vulnerable spot. Lessons learned from Grissom's demise, may have gone into improving the Oberth-class design as well as Federation shields, IMO.

So the Federation will just improve its shields, just like that?

No, but in time (I don't believe I said anything about it being overnight or whatever). If the Klingons develop a new more powerful torpedo or disruptor cannon, why wouldn't the Federation improve its shields to match it?

 

[sonak]

I think your being charitable here. I don't think we're supposed to get the impression that the Klingons developed some kind of "super torpedo" right before the events of TSFS. I think the idea was that the "Grissom" was a pathetic vessel, and that its destruction was necessary to the plot. Should have been handled better than it was though.


Sad too, because Captain Esteban rocks. He should have gotten a better ship.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think your being charitable here.

Not really. Some ships are better at some things than others.

I don't think we're supposed to get the impression that the Klingons developed some kind of "super torpedo" right before the events of TSFS.

Why not? It took out a Federation starship with a single hit. Even if the Oberth-class was a weak design, that's a "WTF?" moment. But I propose that if the Federation was engaged in a cold war/arms race with the Klingons, it's not implausible that if the Klingons developed a more potent weapon system, then the Federation should develop a stronger defense system, I would think.

I think the idea was that the "Grissom" was a pathetic vessel, and that its destruction was necessary to the plot. Should have been handled better than it was though.

There's no denying that the destruction of Grissom was essential to the plot, but in that regard it could have been any vessel except Kirk's in that particular situation.

Sad too, because Captain Esteban rocks. He should have gotten a better ship.

I thought Esteban was a rule book jockey and the end result would have been the same even if he had Excelsior.

 

[CoveTom]

Leonard Nimoy and Harve Bennett have both, I believe, indicated that the Grissom was intended to be a vessel that we did not take seriously, and that's why, in fact, they made the upholstery pink.

 

[The Wormhole]

you would think that due to there size, ships like the Oberth, Nova and Miranda would be commanded by ltCmdrs or commanders, as it is i assume in todays navies?

You would think so, but Trek shows pretty much all Starfleet ships being commanded by full Captains.

DS9 tried to shake things up a bit, with Lt. Commander Worf being the Defiant's commanding officer. Also, Lt. Commander Dax was assigned command of it briefly during the Dominion War. Of course, there's also the rather infamous example of a Lieutenant JG commanding the Nebula class Prometheus. Mind you, I think the intent was for the officer to be a Lt. Commander, but someone screwed up on his rank insignia.

 

[T'Girl]

During the episode depicting a Klingon civil war both Riker and Data assumed the Captaincy of a couple of ships without the benefit of being the permanent rank of "Captain."

 

[Nightdiamond]

I kind of like the Mirandas. They look like tough, hard working ships.

If they were still being used after over 80 years, I think there might have been something to them.

Although they did get their asses kicked a lot.

I'll make the case that maybe because they saw more action WE saw them getting hit or destroyed a lot.

Starfleet seemed to have a lot of them-a lot more than the other designs.

 

[Myasishchev]

According to the logic of the consensus, the HMS Hood and USS Wasp were both boats made for pussies.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

Oberth class shields are pretty useless against a Klingon torpedo. But Jem`hadar attack ships don`t last long under Klingon disruptor fire either.

Oberth class weapons are at least powerful enough to damage a Constitution class starship, since Kirk was worried that the Grissom may fire on the Enterprise.

But ya, I would not want to be on the front lines of a Borg invasion while sitting on an Oberth Class starship. But it`s probably safer than being in an attack fighter during the Dominion war. And an attack fighter is safer than a runabout. In `By Infernos Light`, there was a huge Federation Klingon task force, DS9, plus a fleet of Romulan Warbirds ready to have a showdown with the Dominion-Cardassian fleet. Sisko ordered his three dinky runabouts deployed to join the fleet. Runabouts! At least attack fighters operate in squadrons. These were three lone runabouts. They`re designed for transportation, not combat. I would hate to be the guy assigned to a runabout. I`ll take a shitty Oberth class over a dinky Danube class runabout anyday

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

Yes, I'm assuming that Oberths at least get escape pods, if they help anything.

 

[Anticitizen]

Kruge's gunner did say it was a 'lucky shot'. Also, they were at very close range, which may have played a role in the torpedo's effectiveness, if it's an energy-based weapon.

Anyway, the Oberth-class is just a spaceframe. Whether the Oberth was under-armed is open to speculation. I imagine you can squeeze in whatever shields and weapons you want, so long as you have room. Now, according to Ex Astris Scientia - http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/oberth-size.htm - there isn't much room. That size is pretty darn small even compared to a Constitution; about the same size as a Bird of Prey.

I imagine the Grissom was assigned to do science work well within the Federation-controlled space, not on the frontier, and it was the fact that a sneaky Bird of Prey cloaked its way past the perimeter that did it in. But that's not to say that the Oberth couldn't have been better-armed when serving other roles. Just trade off science gear for phaser arrays.