Plinkett gets REVENGE

[lurok]

Shakepeare's Romeo and Juliet was a rewrite of pre-existing source artwork. Sometimes, in the long run, the better ideas, and higher-quality copies, win out.

Rewrite, re-edit, reimagining, whatever. But just like fanedits makes absolutely no change to the pre-existing source material, which was my original point. Just provides another copy/version. As for better or not, I'm in no position to judge either pre-Shakespeare sources or fanedits as seen/read neither

 

[JarodRussell]

Try looking up Godwin's Law, as I just did - I was pleasantly surprised to find that it doesn't mean what I thought/you may think it means.

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1." In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope— someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

Russell's Law is a specialization of Godwin's law, stating: "As an online discussion about filmmaking and writing grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Shakespeare approaches 1." In other words, Russell put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion about filmmaking and writing someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to the works of and/or the quality standards set up by Shakesspeare.

 

[AJBryant]

Can't wait. I get far more entertainment out of his reviews than I do the actual movies.

Ditto.

I'd buy DVDs of his DVD reviews, if they existed.

 

[Set Harth]

I have only seen and read things where Lucas has stated the Anakin was the Chosen One because he was created by the force

I doubt it, because I've never seen anything where Lucas said that. Take the "Chosen One" feature on ROTS, for example. Lucas defines Anakin as the Chosen One because of what he does, not his origin.

From what is suggested in the films themselves, if Anakin was created by the Sith, he wasn't created by the Force. This suggests that he can't be the Chosen One.

Since Lucas had said that Anakin is the Chosen One and has also said that Sith creation is a possibility in Anakin's origin, being created by the Sith and being the Chosen One are not mutually exclusive.

We're left to argue over what was "intended." Was Luke really the Chosen One?

Lucas says no, but feel free to argue over that nonequivocal position.

 

[Gaith]

Shakepeare's Romeo and Juliet was a rewrite of pre-existing source artwork. Sometimes, in the long run, the better ideas, and higher-quality copies, win out.

Rewrite, re-edit, reimagining, whatever. But just like fanedits makes absolutely no change to the pre-existing source material, which was my original point. Just provides another copy/version. As for better or not, I'm in no position to judge either pre-Shakespeare sources or fanedits as seen/read neither

Either way, fanedits are one of the reasons why The Mirrorball Man's contention that fan canon does not exist is objectively and demonstrably false.

 

[Set Harth]

At the end of the day, the function of MC is a matter of opinion since we weren't told specifically what they do beyond "They allow all life to exist and they allow Jedi to hear the will of the Force."

So where's the ambiguity? How is there ambiguity in the fact that we weren't told specifically what they do beyond what we were told specifically that they actually do? Doesn't that standard label all conceivable material as "ambiguous", making the concept meaningless? What you're really saying here is that the film did not say midichlorians were the Force, and this must be ambiguous because midichlorians are obviously the Force, so it is a valid opinion that midichlorians are the Force. You're calling the complete absence of this stance in the film "ambiguity", but it's something completely different: the film failing to support the revisionism in any way.

Just saying there really is no ambiguity doesn't serve to remove the fact that there were ambiguity.

So... it's all just a matter of opinion as to whether or not there is ambiguity, and as a result the function of midichlorians must be a matter of opinion as well. The problem is that not everything comes down to a matter of "opinion". A supposed criticism of a film should be based on something that's really there in the first place, not something imaginary backed up by mere insistence that its lack of existence is only "opinion".

Can you provide a link stating this

It's from the Rolling Stone article "The Cult of Darth Vader". But the simple fact that he kills Palpatine regardless of his origin should be enough without the article.

The entire issue of what being the Chosen One means was so completely bungled that we would type our fingers bloody going into all that was wrong with it.

Knock yourself out.

 

[infinix]

Okay Seth,

Let's reason this logically. But first, tell me if you agree with my premise.

1) MC has one specific function. Revealing the will of the Force.
2) MC is the single most important organism in the universe since without it, life is impossible.
3) MC could even be manipulated to create life.

If you agree with my premise, isn't it logical then for the audience to expect more than a couple of lines explaining what exactly these MC are and what they do? If you don't care, than that's an opinion. My opinion is that since MC are so important, it is a down right travesty to simply throw 3 lines at the audience that does nothing to explain more about the MC. My further opinion is that Obi-Wan and Yoda did a much better job explaining what the Force was in the OT comparatively.

One more question. Since MC count is easily obtained, then those with a low MC count would automatically not have Force sensitivity. What's the point of saying "May the Force be with you." if everyone know empirically whether they could ever hope to hear the Force or not?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In ROTS, it is suggested that a Sith possibly created Anakin using the Force.

Sorry, help me out here, please. Where does Revenge of the Sith suggest this exactly?

 

[Bishop76]

The opera scene where they're watching some giant insemination opera.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The opera scene where they're watching some giant insemination opera.

I don't see any dialog there that would support this. There is the story of Darth Plagueis, but that doesn't really have anything to do with this.

If you are basing this on any perceived symbolism in the performance of the Mon Calamari, that is thin indeed.

 

[Whofan]

I think one of the more recent essential guides (Chronology I believe) went out and said something to that effect, that Plageuis (or Palpatine) created Anakin as some kind of Sith experiment or something. Then again the book is mainly "Expanded Universe" stuff that doesn't really count....


I also recall reading in the making of books that they dwelved more into this, but in the final film it's left open.

Yeah, the Opera is suppossed to be Mon Calamari dancing in water globes. But we never get a close up of the dancers so it's hard to tell.

 

[OsmiumJohnnycake]

I don't follow the EU or the resource books, but purely based on the films, regardless of what Palpatine says to Anakin, it should be viewed skeptically. Even Ben lied to Luke.

But yeah, when watching ROTS for the first (and only) time, I thought it was a hint to the viewer that Anakin might be the result of Plageuis' experiment (or whatever you'd call it) but the primary purpose was to dangle a carrot in front of Anakin in his attempt to get him to join Team Sith.

 

[Bishop76]

It was more than the opera, though that was a visual clue; it was the way he stated that Plagueis could manipulate midi-chlorians to create life and then looked pointedly at Anakin. Regardless of what the truth was, it was heavily implied.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't follow the EU or the resource books, but purely based on the films, regardless of what Palpatine says to Anakin, it should be viewed skeptically. Even Ben lied to Luke.

But yeah, when watching ROTS for the first (and only) time, I thought it was a hint to the viewer that Anakin might be the result of Plageuis' experiment (or whatever you'd call it) but the primary purpose was to dangle a carrot in front of Anakin in his attempt to get him to join Team Sith.

Agreed 100%.

If an episode of The Clone Wars "reveals it", or if that other live action show does, if it ever gets made, then that's a different story. Otherwise, I doubt we'll ever know.

According to this version of the script, the line in question is this:

PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

The problem I have with using this line as evidence is that Palpatine cannot be trusted. I'm with OsmiumJohnnycake here. In fact, for all we know the whole tale of Darth Plagueis could be a lie, or tall tale. We never see any evidence that there is any merit to the story. All we have are vague ambiguities.

This may be heresy to some, but I believe that sowing a great deal of confusion, as was done here, without providing any clarification as to what actually occurred, is one of the main weaknesses of the prequel trilogy.

 

[Bishop76]

Hey, I agree with that entirely - the PT was shit for a lot of reasons, let's just tack this one onto the list.

 

[Broccoli]

The opera scene where they're watching some giant insemination opera.

I don't see any dialog there that would support this. There is the story of Darth Plagueis, but that doesn't really have anything to do with this.

If you are basing this on any perceived symbolism in the performance of the Mon Calamari, that is thin indeed.

While I'll grant you that the film doesn't come out and say this directly, the film does, perhaps unintentionally, give this suggestion to the audience. Consider that in TPM, Qui-Gon mentions how Anakin was "conceived by the midi-chlorians." The next time this concept is mentioned is in RotS where Palpatine tells the story of how that Sith Lord could "influence the midi-chlorians to create life".

How can that not make the viewer start to speculate on whether the two are connected?

Can you provide a link stating this

It's from the Rolling Stone article "The Cult of Darth Vader". But the simple fact that he kills Palpatine regardless of his origin should be enough without the article.

How would killing Palpatine automatically make him the chosen one? He also killed a helluva lot of Jedi. Was that in the prophecy too?

Again, the prophecy was never spelled out enough for the viewer. And even when we get some sort of vague inferred answer (such as Obi-Wan asking if destroying the Sith is Anakin's duty), it is countered (like when Yoda muses they might have misread the prophecy).

Now, it might have been the intention. However, the simple fact is that it was never explored enough to make any dramatic or narrative impact.

But yeah, when watching ROTS for the first (and only) time, I thought it was a hint to the viewer that Anakin might be the result of Plageuis' experiment (or whatever you'd call it) but the primary purpose was to dangle a carrot in front of Anakin in his attempt to get him to join Team Sith.

I agree. Here is what I think happened. Lucas was writing and felt that he needed something to get Anakin to fall in league with Palpatine to save Padme. GL then remembered the MC from the first film and thought "Great! This is already established and will totally work!" Then he realized that Palpatine's story seems an awful lot like how Anakin was created. He then said "Screw it. It works for the story right now."

Lucas then took a bath in $100 bills.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I have a more recent post than that on the matter, that pretty much sinks the question I think.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

The commentary in ROTS explicitly states that Palpatine created Anakin.

There. Settled.
Done

 

[Broccoli]

I have a more recent post than that on the matter, that pretty much sinks the question I think.

You asked how it was suggested, so I responded since it wasn't directly answered yet.

The commentary in ROTS explicitly states that Palpatine created Anakin.

There. Settled.
Done

Which makes things even more confusing!!

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Either way, fanedits are one of the reasons why The Mirrorball Man's contention that fan canon does not exist is objectively and demonstrably false.

As I said, "denial".