Walter Koenig on Shat's Raw Nerve

[Captain Robert April]

As he's said before, including that chat with Nimoy in "Mind Meld", the thought process was to streamline the action and get on with the story by snipping a lot of unnecessary dialogue that did nothing to forward the plot. Nothing personal, just business.

Apparently, Nichelle was the only one who would call him on it at the time ("Goddammit, Bill, that's my line you're cutting!").

 

[Merky]

As he's said before, including that chat with Nimoy in "Mind Meld", the thought process was to streamline the action and get on with the story by snipping a lot of unnecessary dialogue that did nothing to forward the plot. Nothing personal, just business.

That is what the editors are for, which is why scenes like the one between Uhura and Spock in Elaan of Troyius are left on the cutting room floor. It's understandable that it's business and I don't fault them all entirely. Business is business and he was protecting the interest of his character... But doing things to make his character seem grander than what he was, to be almost superficial at the sacrifice of the other characters just comes off as dickish.

Awesome to have drinks with, shitty to work with. Keep it classy, Shat. That's all.

eta: I am going to use Nimoy again as an example and I hate to use him a lot in this conversation but out of everyone on the cast, he is the most "unbias" one in calling Shatner's flaws. What better than your best friend to call you out when you screw up and to praise you when you succeed?

In I Am Spock, Nimoy writes that Shatner was concerned that Spock was essentially trumping him in problem solving, despite the fact it was technically Spock's job to analyze and solve problems, because it would make him seem dumb in contrast. So Shatner made it that some of Spock's lines ended up as Kirk's lines. Nimoy in response wrote to Roddenberry, in more or less saying let Kirk be giant among men, be the best captain, greatest lover, but above all let him be a leader and let his subordinates keep their dignity.

 

[Itisnotlogical]

It's so bizarre. My brother was watching an episode of TOS on my DVD player in the living room and I can see it from my computer. I look over my shoulder and there's a young Walter... I turn back, and there's old Walter.

 

[beamMe]

the others would often times only be there for scenes on the bridge, meaning they would be there for ONE FREAKIN' DAY! Like Shatner said in a Starlog interview, "they were barely there."

Which should have made it obvious to him when he would take a line from them and it turn out to be their only line in that episode, thereby deleting their job for the week.

And saving the studio money.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Everyone else was replaceable and I'm pretty sure the producers were not shy in reminding them that fact.

For the first thirteen weeks, the only cast on longterm contracts were Shatner, Nimoy, Kelley and Whitney. The rest were day-players. Totally replaceable.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Walter Koenig never was under contract.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Even in that free talk Shatner did with Nimoy called Mind Meld, he pretty much was " I was the lead star IDEGI ". He's pretty much cemented in his reasoning that Star Trek was his show, they were along for the ride, and he doesn't understand why they don't get that.

I don't get why they don't get that either. It was the truth. Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley were the only regulars. They were under contract for the whole of each season. Doohan, Koenig, Nichols and Takei were freakin' day players. They were hired on an episode by episode basis. Paramount was under no commitment to them, nor they to it. Succinctly put Shatner was the star and they were at best glorified guest actors. Personally if I were Shatner I wouldn't give those prima donna crybabies the time of day after all the crap those ingrates have slung at him time and again.

I find that story where Nichols gets to the end of an interview and says, "don't you want to know why we all hate you?" is just sad.
Although I understand that the studio was pretty uptight in those days, Roddenberry wasn't a closed door. My impression is that they didn't even try, whether out of fear for their jobs, or the culture in the workplace, to address the issue in a positive way.
The scripts for TOS were being rewritten as they were filming. It was a high pressure situation and I honestly can't fault Shatner for giving his input, nor can I fault him for having top billing in the credits.

But he was a big bastard for hiding Leonard's bicycle.

 

[Merky]

Although I understand that the studio was pretty uptight in those days, Roddenberry wasn't a closed door. My impression is that they didn't even try, whether out of fear for their jobs, or the culture in the workplace, to address the issue in a positive way.

I don't know about that. Gene was still a business man. He refused to let Nichols out of her contract when she wanted to leave to work on Mannix and his relationship with Nimoy had deteriorated by TMP due to creative/financial differences.

I think Roddenberry tried to work with the actors when he could but I also think he didn't bend his back far enough if it was going to hurt his own self interest.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

Nichelle wasn't under contract. Solow and Justman were pretty clear on that in Inside Star Trek. If anything she was hounding Roddenberry for a contract commitment that Desilu wasn't going to make. I think he managed to get her slightly more money than some of the other day-players though.

 

[Forbin]

Okay, what does "IDEGI" mean?

 

[Haggis and tatties]

Okay, what does "IDEGI" mean?

"Infinite diversity expands Gene's income".

 

[siskokid888]

An anecdote that was related to me several years ago:

Several years ago, Walter Koenig was on one of those Trek Cruises, basically just trying to recover from a recent heart attack. At one point, he was on a panel discussion, along with Majel Barrett, and Majel was on a major league Shatner bash. Eventually, she apparently ran out of nasty things to say, and she turned to Walter and asked him for his take.

Paraphrasing here: "Look, even if everything you said is true, the fact remains that we didn't say anything to him about it then, so we really don't have any room to go on about it now, after all these years."

What followed was one of those exceedingly rare moments when Majel was rendered speechless.

That doesn't surprise me. I remember an interview with Walter where he was asked about the Shatner bashing, and he said "these people are trying to paint him as a monster or orgre, and he was far from that. I had my problems with him, but he was not some out of control psycho".

Look, I've seen and been close to Shatner a number of times. Sometimes he's great, other times he's a complete douche. Probably like most people, good days, and bad days.

And, not for nothing, Nimoy has always pulled alot of the same shit Shatner is accused of - counting lines, complaining about screen time, knocking the fans and the show, as well as trying to constantly seperate himself from the character (he held out on TMP, and wouldn't appear in "Generations" because his part "wasn't big enough".) and yet never caught a modicum of the crap Shatner has.

I always felt the "gang of 4"'s schtick was based on jealousy, and little more.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

And I suspect the supporting cast knew they were the supporting cast back then. It as the later fan adulation that likely made them think otherwise.

Would any of the supporting stars of say, VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEAR, get away with claiming to be a major part of the cast? Chief Sharkey, Kowalski, Patterson, sure you loved them, but hey, they're nobodies!

...but from what I've heard the only thing I can really say is that there's a thing called respect at the work place. It's fine Shatner wanted to protect his character and his own self interest on the show, but don't shit on everyone else to do it. Their contribution is as valuable as Shatner's own.

Uh, NO. That would be like saying the teenager that comes in on weekends and cleans my store is as valuable as one of the typesetters or copier operators. That's just not true. Shatner is the STAR. Nimoy is a STAR. Kelley is a STAR. The rest are window-dressing.

...Nimoy has always pulled alot of the same shit Shatner is accused of - counting lines, complaining about screen time, knocking the fans and the show, as well as trying to constantly seperate himself from the character (he held out on TMP, and wouldn't appear in "Generations" because his part "wasn't big enough".) and yet never caught a modicum of the crap Shatner has.

I've noticed this as well, and wonder if it's because of the "Get a Life" sketch from Saturday Night Live. I don't recall that much animosity from the fans toward Shatner before that time. It was after that I noticed a number of fans were in the "bash the shat" mode.

I always felt the "gang of 4"'s schtick was based on jealousy, and little more.

Quite so. As much as I love the minor characters, they're not the stars of the series. One of the weaknesses of their arguments that they were as important as Shatner is that this vision of an ensemble cast is rarely justified from visual evidence. Even in the films, each character gets "their moment" often to the detriment of the story, but rarely more. And ironically, of the gang of little four, it's Walter Koenig in TWOK who actually gets the meatiest role.

 

[Merky]

[
And, not for nothing, Nimoy has always pulled alot of the same shit Shatner is accused of - counting lines, complaining about screen time, knocking the fans and the show, as well as trying to constantly seperate himself from the character (he held out on TMP, and wouldn't appear in "Generations" because his part "wasn't big enough".) and yet never caught a modicum of the crap Shatner has.

Nimoy held out of TMP because of a pending law suit against the studio and Gene for royalties unpaid and unauthorized usage of his image that went against his contractual agreement when he signed on for TOS. I call that a justified means of holding out if I was getting ripped off for 11 years, no?

I think he also explicitedly said that his part could have been played by anyone else. Nimoy may have, on occasion, grabbed the studio by the balls but he, like Shatner, was defending his characters integrity.

Like i said, there is no fault in doing that. It's the way on how you go about it.

Uh, NO. That would be like saying the teenager that comes in on weekends and cleans my store is as valuable as one of the typesetters or copier operators. That's just not true. Shatner is the STAR. Nimoy is a STAR. Kelley is a STAR. The rest are window-dressing.

So you would call that justifiable means to essentially dick anyone else who isn't the star of the show? Deforest wasn't even upgraded until S2, so he was as much as a " teenager that comes in on the weekends " up until that point.

Everyone contributed to the series. Scotty is iconic, Chekov is iconic, Sulu is iconic, and Uhura is iconic as much as Bones, Kirk, and Spock. To denounce their contribution is as jacked up as Shatner counting lines and demanding that he get this or that when he's already got 80% of the total screen time on the show.

The show was called Star Trek, not " The Adventures of James T. Kirk ".

I know the business world is ruthless. I work in it everyday but dude there's this thing called ethics and sometimes you can't justify being a dick. If you're gonna act like a dick then you're gonna act like a dick. The only ones loosing out on that deal was the supporting cast members who already went into the show with barely page of lines. Shatner didn't have anything else to loose in filming other than his ego.

I like Shatner, love watching him on TV. Find him hilarious. Probably a great guy to have a few drinks with and laugh about the good ol' days. But I still find some of the things that he did the set during TOS and throughout the filming of the TOS franchise kind of a dick move.

 

[Captain Robert April]

So, kinda new to show business, I take it?

 

[Merky]

So, kinda new to show business, I take it?

It really doesn't matter what business you're in. Standard of ethics applies wherever you go. There's no justification for being an asshole. It's like saying Charlie Sheen can do whatever he wants because he's the star of 2 and a Half Men or that it's within Christian Bale's right to blow up at that camera man even if he is trashing his lights.

Fine, he's Captain Kirk - and what? He's just a title character that fleshed out through his interactions with the rest of the cast. He wasn't signing their checks so he doesn't have all the right in the world to do whatever he wanted to their scripts. He was as replaceable as everyone else. /shrug

All this crap happened 45 years ago. If these guys are mature adults, I doubt they're spending the rest of their lives stabbing their Shatner voodoo dolls and cursing him in their sleep every night. I think they've all moved on and have developed a mutual respect. The stories will always be there but I don't think they're all personally saying " Fuck you, Bill! " whenever they see him in the street.

 

[beamMe]

Everyone contributed to the series. Scotty is iconic, Chekov is iconic, Sulu is iconic, and Uhura is iconic as much as Bones, Kirk, and Spock. To denounce their contribution is as jacked up as Shatner counting lines and demanding that he get this or that when he's already got 80% of the total screen time on the show.

The show was called Star Trek, not " The Adventures of James T. Kirk ".

I know the business world is ruthless. I work in it everyday but dude there's this thing called ethics and sometimes you can't justify being a dick. If you're gonna act like a dick then you're gonna act like a dick. The only ones loosing out on that deal was the supporting cast members who already went into the show with barely page of lines. Shatner didn't have anything else to loose in filming other than his ego.

I like Shatner, love watching him on TV. Find him hilarious. Probably a great guy to have a few drinks with and laugh about the good ol' days. But I still find some of the things that he did the set during TOS and throughout the filming of the TOS franchise kind of a dick move.

No one denounces their contribution to the show.
But at that time why should Shatner have cared about a group of day players that could have been on another show filmed for another studio the next day?

 

[Merky]

Everyone contributed to the series. Scotty is iconic, Chekov is iconic, Sulu is iconic, and Uhura is iconic as much as Bones, Kirk, and Spock. To denounce their contribution is as jacked up as Shatner counting lines and demanding that he get this or that when he's already got 80% of the total screen time on the show.

The show was called Star Trek, not " The Adventures of James T. Kirk ".

I know the business world is ruthless. I work in it everyday but dude there's this thing called ethics and sometimes you can't justify being a dick. If you're gonna act like a dick then you're gonna act like a dick. The only ones loosing out on that deal was the supporting cast members who already went into the show with barely page of lines. Shatner didn't have anything else to loose in filming other than his ego.

I like Shatner, love watching him on TV. Find him hilarious. Probably a great guy to have a few drinks with and laugh about the good ol' days. But I still find some of the things that he did the set during TOS and throughout the filming of the TOS franchise kind of a dick move.

No one denounces their contribution to the show.
But at that time why should Shatner have cared about a group of day players that could have been on another show filmed for another studio the next day?

When you're a black woman in the 1960s, what work was there to take? There wasn't really that many shows in the 60s that featured black actors or had opportunities comparative to a white actor.

Yeah, maybe in the case of Doohan and Koeing there was work. They were white actors and could have easily got work on a Western or something on the side of Star Trek. But what about Nichelle? Takei had an advantage, there was still a lot of films in Hollywood about the Pacific Stage - there was some work out there for an Asian male. Nichelle had nothing (and still was willing to give it up due to her treatment on the set).

You gotta look at this from all angles. It's not a black and white "this is what they say on the casting sheet/payroll" - there are other factors that play into this and to not take those factors into consideration is a dick move. Nothing here can justify Shatner's actions towards his co-stars, even if he did not mean it maliciously. His lack of concern in return hurt his costars.

And in the same light, nothing can condone the over zealous bashing on part of their end. But there is a cause and effect to everything and it must be acknowledge. Shatner isn't simply the victim here.

 

[beamMe]

Everyone contributed to the series. Scotty is iconic, Chekov is iconic, Sulu is iconic, and Uhura is iconic as much as Bones, Kirk, and Spock. To denounce their contribution is as jacked up as Shatner counting lines and demanding that he get this or that when he's already got 80% of the total screen time on the show.

The show was called Star Trek, not " The Adventures of James T. Kirk ".

I know the business world is ruthless. I work in it everyday but dude there's this thing called ethics and sometimes you can't justify being a dick. If you're gonna act like a dick then you're gonna act like a dick. The only ones loosing out on that deal was the supporting cast members who already went into the show with barely page of lines. Shatner didn't have anything else to loose in filming other than his ego.

I like Shatner, love watching him on TV. Find him hilarious. Probably a great guy to have a few drinks with and laugh about the good ol' days. But I still find some of the things that he did the set during TOS and throughout the filming of the TOS franchise kind of a dick move.

No one denounces their contribution to the show.
But at that time why should Shatner have cared about a group of day players that could have been on another show filmed for another studio the next day?

When you're a black woman in the 1960s, what work was there to take? There wasn't really that many shows in the 60s that featured black actors or had opportunities comparative to a white actor.

Yeah, maybe in the case of Doohan and Koeing there was work. They were white actors and could have easily got work on a Western or something on the side of Star Trek. But what about Nichelle? Takei had an advantage, there was still a lot of films in Hollywood about the Pacific Stage - there was some work out there for an Asian male. Nichelle had nothing (and still was willing to give it up due to her treatment on the set).

You gotta look at this from all angles. It's not a black and white "this is what they say on the casting sheet/payroll" - there are other factors that play into this and to not take those factors into consideration is a dick move. Nothing here can justify Shatner's actions towards his co-stars, even if he did not mean it maliciously. His lack of concern in return hurt his costars.

And in the same light, nothing can condone the over zealous bashing on part of their end. But there is a cause and effect to everything and it must be acknowledge. Shatner isn't simply the victim here.

Again, WHY should he have cared?
Was Gutmenschentum part of his contract?

 

[Merky]

No one denounces their contribution to the show.
But at that time why should Shatner have cared about a group of day players that could have been on another show filmed for another studio the next day?

When you're a black woman in the 1960s, what work was there to take? There wasn't really that many shows in the 60s that featured black actors or had opportunities comparative to a white actor.

Yeah, maybe in the case of Doohan and Koeing there was work. They were white actors and could have easily got work on a Western or something on the side of Star Trek. But what about Nichelle? Takei had an advantage, there was still a lot of films in Hollywood about the Pacific Stage - there was some work out there for an Asian male. Nichelle had nothing (and still was willing to give it up due to her treatment on the set).

You gotta look at this from all angles. It's not a black and white "this is what they say on the casting sheet/payroll" - there are other factors that play into this and to not take those factors into consideration is a dick move. Nothing here can justify Shatner's actions towards his co-stars, even if he did not mean it maliciously. His lack of concern in return hurt his costars.

And in the same light, nothing can condone the over zealous bashing on part of their end. But there is a cause and effect to everything and it must be acknowledge. Shatner isn't simply the victim here.

Again, WHY should he have cared?
Was Gutmenschentum part of his contract?

I'll say it again: ETHICS IN THE WORKPLACE.

Shatner wants to know why they're pissed off at him. This is why. It's justified animosity. He doesn't want to care? Fine, take the heat with your actions.

" I don't know why they're getting mad at me, I was just doing me."

Congratulations, you're an asshole. There's no I in team, etc.

There? Get it now? Why should they care that Shatner was only concerned about himself on the set? They had themselves to worry about to... Have to let that frustration out, y'know!