Full Circle

[DigificWriter]

Imagine if someone wrote a really lame Voyager book in which Picard acted completely out of character, made idiotic decisions and then was killed off. Don't you think DigificWriter that people would be a wee bit put out? This is what was done to Janeway in a TNG novel.

I will be fine about it if she is brought back and relegated to Admiral duties. Sure I would rather she was prominent in VOY relaunch but if she becomes a secondary character I won't even blink. It's her DEATH and complete and utter DISHONOR in how she was treated in a very badly written book that utterly pisses me off.

Three things:
1) Picard has never been even remotely associated with anything having to do with Voyager, so your analogy makes no sense and is baseless.

2) When Star Trek Nemesis featured Janeway in a supporting role/cameo, she ceased to be a Voyager-exclusive character, so the fact that she was killed off in a TNG novel really has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion, IMO

3) I haven't read Before Dishonor so I can't speak as to its quality, but I personally don't see why it matters if the novel was poorly written

I don't have a problem with the concept of disagreeing with the editors' decision to kill off janeway in principal, but what's done is done and continuing to obsess over said decision and clamor for it to be undone is completely pointless and serves only to cast a bad reflection on the section of the Voyager fandom who would have preferred that the editors of the ST novels would have kept Janeway alive, particularly when the sentiment in principal (objecting to the editors' decisions) isn't universally applied with regards to the rest of the Voyager characters and their involvement in non-Voyager aspects of the Trek literary universe as it currently exists.

 

[BillJ]

The only question that Kathryn Janeway's supporters, of which there are many, many, are interested in is WHEN WILL OUR CAPTAIN COME BACK (in human form, and back to her old self)? Otherwise we are not interested in any further "Voy" books, which are not really Voyager, unless the main character of the TV series is returned to us. We are going to vote with our wallets, and not buy any more Trek lit books (and especially not this next "Voy" one) until this happens. KJ Lives! PS Thanks to all the KJ fans who have given their support to this cause, glad to know you're with us, and this wrong has been partly righted by your efforts. Bring Back Kathryn Janeway!

Got to tell you... I did a little dance when they offed Janeway in Before Dishonor. I found her to be the most overrated character in the Trek universe.

I also don't understand why people won't read Voyager fiction without the character. They're depriving themselves of some damn fine work by Kirsten Beyer, who is merely working the universe that was left to her by Christie Golden and Peter David and doing a damn fine job of it. But hey... the Golden books, while shitty, do have Janeway.

I'm a huge Kirk fan but I didn't go run and jump off a bridge when he died in Star Trek: Generations. If I had... I would have deprived myself of some quality stories that came afterward. YMMV.

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

So Ms. Beyer.. does Janeway come back in Children of the Storm? Since you are here I figure there is no harm in asking

You know, fun as it was to have everyone chime in and discuss at great length the choices that were made in Full Circle before the book came out, I've decided never ever under any circumstances to go down that road again.

There is never any harm in asking, and you'll have an answer in a couple of months when the book comes out.

Ms. Beyer,

It's not that we want to scare you into bringing Janeway back. I, for one, loved Full Circle. It was a wonderful book. But for some of us Janeway was what made Voyager so great, or a part of it, and for her to be gone is like a PB&J without the jelly.

I'm sure if you ever bring her back you will do it brilliantly. And make up for her dishonorable death in a wondrous way.

Thank you for your kind words. And not to worry...I don't scare easily. And I feel the loss of the character more than you can possibly imagine. I'm actually in the process of re-watching several episodes at the moment for an upcoming article I'm writing and just reveling in Kate's magnificence.

Along with Tuvok's, while we're at it. The particular season I'm watching features some of the most amazing and subtle work by Tim Russ. I'm just floored by him right now. Having been away from him for awhile, I'd actually forgotten how incredible he can be. And damn funny, too.

You should not for a single instant believe that I don't feel all kinds of your pain and then some.

I also don't understand why people won't read Voyager fiction without the character. They're depriving themselves of some damn fine work by Kirsten Beyer, who is merely working the universe that was left to her by Christie Golden and Peter David and doing a damn fine job of it.

That's really nice of you to say. Thanks.

Best,
Kirsten Beyer

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

So Ms. Beyer.. does Janeway come back in Children of the Storm? Since you are here I figure there is no harm in asking

You know, fun as it was to have everyone chime in and discuss at great length the choices that were made in Full Circle before the book came out, I've decided never ever under any circumstances to go down that road again.

There is never any harm in asking, and you'll have an answer in a couple of months when the book comes out.

Okay! I didn't think you would say but it was fun to ask

 

[Brit]

I also don't understand why people won't read Voyager fiction without the character. They're depriving themselves of some damn fine work by Kirsten Beyer, who is merely working the universe that was left to her by Christie Golden and Peter David and doing a damn fine job of it. But hey... the Golden books, while shitty, do have Janeway.

I'm a huge Kirk fan but I didn't go run and jump off a bridge when he died in Star Trek: Generations. If I had... I would have deprived myself of some quality stories that came afterward. YMMV.

To not understand it is one thing, but to ridicule people that do feel that a book without Janeway isn't a book for them, is unacceptable. I for one read a lot, heck I have visions of actually writing books but in no way do I feel that the books I might write or even the books I read and enjoy would be for everyone.

I don't much care for vampire fiction either but that doesn't mean that vampire novels are bad, poorly written, or unworthy of others enjoyment. I just don't buy them and I don't think about writing them either. However that said, vampire romances are some of the hottest selling books on the market now.

Kirsten Beyer is marketing her skills as a writer, and her customer is the Trek editor at Pocket Books. In no way do I want to disparage her skills as a writer, I understand she is a fine author. But she isn't writing what I want to read, so I'm not buying it. I am also not disparaging your enjoyment of those books, but to intimate that those people that don't are somehow stupid, or crazy or ignorant is simply wrong.

By the way the Pocket Books editors also have a customer, and this is their marketing department, and their marketing department's attention is raised when people stop buying certain books. The one thing that can't be gotten around is that Pocket Books is publishing fewer and fewer Trek novels because in this economy they have to concentrate on what does sell, and we are and will continue to point out to what we would buy if they would simply produce it.

We are not jumping off a bridge either, and I really resent the implication that we are suicidal phychopaths just because we are asking for what we want. One thing I can guarantee is that we will continue to ask for it until we get it.

Brit

 

[BillJ]

To not understand it is one thing, but to ridicule people that do feel that a book without Janeway isn't a book for them, is unacceptable. I for one read a lot, heck I have visions of actually writing books but in no way do I feel that the books I might write or even the books I read and enjoy would be for everyone.

I don't much care for vampire fiction either but that doesn't mean that vampire novels are bad, poorly written, or unworthy of others enjoyment. I just don't buy them and I don't think about writing them either. However that said, vampire romances are some of the hottest selling books on the market now.

Kirsten Beyer is marketing her skills as a writer, and her customer is the Trek editor at Pocket Books. In no way do I want to disparage her skills as a writer, I understand she is a fine author. But she isn't writing what I want to read, so I'm not buying it. I am also not disparaging your enjoyment of those books, but to intimate that those people that don't are somehow stupid, or crazy or ignorant is simply wrong.

By the way the Pocket Books editors also have a customer, and this is their marketing department, and their marketing department's attention is raised when people stop buying certain books. The one thing that can't be gotten around is that Pocket Books is publishing fewer and fewer Trek novels because in this economy they have to concentrate on what does sell, and we are and will continue to point out to what we would buy if they would simply produce it.

We are not jumping off a bridge either, and I really resent the implication that we are suicidal phychopaths just because we are asking for what we want. One thing I can guarantee is that we will continue to ask for it until we get it.

Brit

There is no ridicule in my post... simply an observation about the gang that calls themselves the 'Militant Janeway' group. As far as Star Trek: Voyager goes, you've jumped off the bridge because you refuse to accept that the series can go on without certain characters (Lynx really comes to mind here).

Rick Berman and company made a point to show that Janeway was no longer aboard Voyager in Star Trek: Nemesis. Long before either Peter David or Kirsten Beyer were on the scene. I think it shows that 'the powers that be' were acknowledging that life goes on. Not everyone is a Jim Kirk or a Jean-Luc Picard and sits on the same command for thirty years. In story, sending Janeway back to the Delta Quadrant with a fleet of starships would be the equivalent of sending Jon Archer or Jim Kirk to Kronos with a fleet... nothing good can come of it.

The 'Militant Janeway' fans are starting to remind me a bit of Christian Fundamentalists. So close-minded. That's a real shame.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The 'Militant Janeway' fans are starting to remind me a bit of Christian Fundamentalists. So close-minded. That's a real shame.

And now you are ridiculing.

As Brit explained to you it all comes down to taste. I've purchased and read just about every book in all the relaunches and many many Trek books before that, purchased NEW at inflated Australian bookstore prices (try up to 18.00 for a paperback in certain years). I have a good understanding of which authors, which series, which story lines I will go out of my way to obtain (often 6 months to a year before they get to this country) and which I dislike enough that I won't bother with.

It's taste. I won't litter this thread with the specifics of my other tastes, I'm pretty unpicky with Treklit but there are some things I find unreadable. My personal stance with Janeway is I won't be buying VOY relaunch new, I will buy it second hand off ebay, as a very infinitesimal message to Pocket Books that I would prefer my VOY relaunch with Janeway alive.

I'm a Treklit consumer and I have my tastes like plenty of other Treklit consumers. If you want to label that narrow and fanatical I think you would have to apply that to most people who buy Treklit and don't bother with this series or that series because they just don't like it. But the difference between my not bothering with X ship or X author because I don't care for them and the Janeway campaign is that I think the Janeway death is something that can and should be fixed. And I think it is eminently fixable without even needing any ridiculous contortions because of the Q factor. And I think it's worth being ridiculed by being compared to a fundamentalist to keep talking about it.

 

[BillJ]

It's taste. I won't litter this thread with the specifics of my other tastes, I'm pretty unpicky with Treklit but there are some things I find unreadable. My personal stance with Janeway is I won't be buying VOY relaunch new, I will buy it second hand off ebay, as a very infinitesimal message to Pocket Books that I would prefer my VOY relaunch with Janeway alive.

But you at least sound like your open to trying it. What if you try it and like it?

 

[BillJ]

The 'Militant Janeway' fans are starting to remind me a bit of Christian Fundamentalists. So close-minded. That's a real shame.

And now you are ridiculing.

Actually I'm not. I truly find it sad when people are unwilling to try new things. After all... it's not Star Trek: Janeway, it's Star Trek: Voyager.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

You haven't read my posts very well. I said I would buy VOY relaunch second hand only as my protest against Janeway being dead. I didn't say I wouldn't read it. I have read all of it. But so what if I wouldn't, how is this close minded? I don't read Peter David books because I tried, I read 4 in total, and I cannot stomach the writing style at all. I'm not narrow minded because I don't read his (IMO crap) writing, I'm exercising my taste.

Some day you may decide there is something in Treklit you don't care for and you may decide not to bother reading it. Will you be narrow minded then?

I know some people find some of the thinly veiled political elements some Treklit authors employ offensive and they don't bother reading those author(s) because of it. They object to it. Are they narrow minded? No, they just have opinions.

The Janeway opinion is not a SPECIAL OPINION that needs to be attacked and called narrow minded. It's no different than any other Treklit opinion out there.

 

[BillJ]

Some day you may decide there is something in Treklit you don't care for and you may decide not to bother reading it. Will you be narrow minded then?

It's taste. I won't litter this thread with the specifics of my other tastes, I'm pretty unpicky with Treklit but there are some things I find unreadable. My personal stance with Janeway is I won't be buying VOY relaunch new, I will buy it second hand off ebay, as a very infinitesimal message to Pocket Books that I would prefer my VOY relaunch with Janeway alive.

You said that you will buy it second-hand, which I thought indicated you hadn't bought them yet. My apologies for misinterpreting.

So... what did you think of the books?

There have been many Trek books I've passed on during the years. If the back cover blurb sounds uninteresting or if it gets poor reviews. But I've never not bought a book because a character wasn't included. For me, Star Trek has always been bigger than any one character. YMMV.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Some day you may decide there is something in Treklit you don't care for and you may decide not to bother reading it. Will you be narrow minded then?

It's taste. I won't litter this thread with the specifics of my other tastes, I'm pretty unpicky with Treklit but there are some things I find unreadable. My personal stance with Janeway is I won't be buying VOY relaunch new, I will buy it second hand off ebay, as a very infinitesimal message to Pocket Books that I would prefer my VOY relaunch with Janeway alive.

You said that you will buy it second-hand, which I thought indicated you hadn't bought them yet. My apologies for misinterpreting.

So... what did you think of the books?

Needs moar Janeway.

Chakotay's emo ways repulse me.

Eden an excellent character, lets hope she finds Janeway soon!!

Much better writing than Christie Golden who seems to start well in a series and then fizzle badly.. have seen this in Trek and Warcraft with her.

There have been many Trek books I've past on during the years. If the back cover blurb sounds uninteresting or if it gets poor reviews. But I've never not bought a book because a character wasn't included. For me, Star Trek has always been bigger than any one character. YMMV.

For me it's all about the writer. My favorite treklit is Terok Nor by James Swallow. DS9 relaunch was very strong in the beginning, though I still found some of it rather lumpy and unreadable as it went along.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

And it's not just the "Militant Janeway" fans that don't like it. A lot of people don't.

To be honest, I could care less that Janeway's dead. It's just how she died that makes us angry.

Like teacake said:

Let's put Picard in a Voyager novel, have him act totally out of character, and then kill him.

You really want to say people wouldn't be pissed off at that?

That's exactly how we feel. Peter David took Janeway and destroyed her completely in one novel.

If Janeway had died with Ms Beyer writing it, I'm sure we wouldn't complain. And why, because she is a wonderful writer who seems to have all of the character's under control. Gold didn't.


And as to who said that when Janeway appeared in Nemesis she was no longer exclusively Voyager's, does that mean since Picard appeared in DS9's pilot that mean you associate him to DS9 too?

 

[BillJ]

Let's put Picard in a Voyager novel, have him act totally out of character, and then kill him.

You really want to say people wouldn't be pissed off at that?

Life is change. I don't mind seeing the status quo challenged. Plus I think Kirsten Beyer has done a wonderful job integrating the old with the new in her novels. Hell... I've been advocating moving Picard off the Enterprise for years now. I've never found it believable that a captain would get to squat on a command for thirty years, whether it be Jean-Luc Picard or James T. Kirk.

And as to who said that when Janeway appeared in Nemesis she was no longer exclusively Voyager's, does that mean since Picard appeared in DS9's pilot that mean you associate him to DS9 too?

This is an apples and oranges comparison... and I think you know it. When we see Picard in Emissary he is on a mission, still in command of the Enterprise. When we see Janeway in Nemesis she is an Admiral who is obviously in a desk job and over Picard (no longer attached to Voyager).

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Let's put Picard in a Voyager novel, have him act totally out of character, and then kill him.

You really want to say people wouldn't be pissed off at that?

Life is change. I don't mind seeing the status quo challenged. Plus I think Kirsten Beyer has done a wonderful job integrating the old with the new in her novels. Hell... I've been advocating moving Picard off the Enterprise for years now. I've never found it believable that a captain would get to squat on a command for thirty years, whether it be Jean-Luc Picard or James T. Kirk.

And as to who said that when Janeway appeared in Nemesis she was no longer exclusively Voyager's, does that mean since Picard appeared in DS9's pilot that mean you associate him to DS9 too?

This is an apples and oranges comparison... and I think you know it. When we see Picard in Emissary he is on a mission, still in command of the Enterprise. When we see Janeway in Nemesis she is an Admiral who is obviously in a desk job and over Picard (no longer attached to Voyager).

I keep on forgetting she was an admiral. Ok, fair point.

And I think she's done a wonderful job too. I haven't been able to fully enjoy a Voyager book since Homecoming because I felt they were too boring. But FC was one of the best Voyager novels I have read since Mosaic or Pathways.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Bill it's you that brought up this weird idea that Janeway is somehow no longer a VOY character because she is an admiral in Nemesis. Kirk was taken off command too but that didn't stop him, and the story, from sticking him back in command it certainly didn't mean he was less of a TOS character. Just because she was behind a desk in Nemesis doesn't mean she couldn't have been integral to the VOY relaunch in a book. Riker is always going to be a TNG character though he has his own ship now, is he less TNG because of the Titan?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

And it's not just the "Militant Janeway" fans that don't like it. A lot of people don't.

To be honest, I could care less that Janeway's dead. It's just how she died that makes us angry.

Those were my initial feelings too. I literally threw the book across the room. I was really shocked that it was even published as it was so badly written, such a hatchet job and seemed to be taking the piss out of Trek for much of it.

I originally used to say that if one of my most beloved characters ever was to die I should have at least cried over it, felt the pain, mourned her passing, honored her sacrifice. I do not think anyone had this response to that piece of crap writing. However I've moved beyond that assessment and now I just want Janeway back. It's not like you can go back and fix her death, write it in a meaningful way, so lets bring her back in a meaningful way instead.

 

[JB2005]

And it's not just the "Militant Janeway" fans that don't like it. A lot of people don't.

To be honest, I could care less that Janeway's dead. It's just how she died that makes us angry.

Those were my initial feelings too. I literally threw the book across the room. I was really shocked that it was even published as it was so badly written, such a hatchet job and seemed to be taking the piss out of Trek for much of it.

I originally used to say that if one of my most beloved characters ever was to die I should have at least cried over it, felt the pain, mourned her passing, honored her sacrifice. I do not think anyone had this response to that piece of crap writing. However I've moved beyond that assessment and now I just want Janeway back. It's not like you can go back and fix her death, write it in a meaningful way, so lets bring her back in a meaningful way instead.

FC went back and rewrote her death in a meaningful way.

 

[BillJ]

Bill it's you that brought up this weird idea that Janeway is somehow no longer a VOY character because she is an admiral in Nemesis. Kirk was taken off command too but that didn't stop him, and the story, from sticking him back in command it certainly didn't mean he was less of a TOS character. Just because she was behind a desk in Nemesis doesn't mean she couldn't have been integral to the VOY relaunch in a book. Riker is always going to be a TNG character though he has his own ship now, is he less TNG because of the Titan?

So you want cameo Janeway? A Janeway who is essentially no more than Bosley from Charlie's Angels? There for ten pages to issue orders from San Francisco. I find that far more disrespectful to the character than what was done in Before Dishonor. Even Endgame has her no longer commanding Voyager once it comes home. The novels were simply following the lead of the filmed material.

Plus, Full Circle and Unworthy just don't work if Janeway is there.

 

[JB2005]

Re riker: Frankly, yes! He's no longer a TNG character when he's in Titan! Like Worf is no longer a DS9 character when he's in TNG or a TNG character when he's in DS9!