If the Barzan wormhole was actually stable

[Anwar]

It's no more an "invasion" than using the Bajoran Wormhole to explore the Gamma Quadrant was. Only difference is that instead of there being one group of jerks who claim that everything in the Quadrant is theirs (Dominion) there would be several groups of jerks (Kazon, Krenim, Hierarchy, etc) along with random roaming "gangs" (Hirogen, Vidiians) and one big nasty (the 8472 aliens) who doesn't give a damn who or where you're from.

And that, since this is potentially a TNG storyline, no one would have any of the problems they had with these aliens when they were on VOY and would like them all right off the bat.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Yeah, it would have reinforced VOY's connection as a TNG spinoff...

 

[Anwar]

Well, yeah that would also work. Introduce all of VOY's aliens in TNG via the Barzan Wormhole stories, and then just use VOY to explore them more. Then there's already a positive first impression for all these aliens instead of immediate negativity.

 

[Satyrquaze]

It's no more an "invasion" than using the Bajoran Wormhole to explore the Gamma Quadrant was. Only difference is that instead of there being one group of jerks who claim that everything in the Quadrant is theirs (Dominion) there would be several groups of jerks (Kazon, Krenim, Hierarchy, etc) along with random roaming "gangs" (Hirogen, Vidiians) and one big nasty (the 8472 aliens) who doesn't give a damn who or where you're from.

And that, since this is potentially a TNG storyline, no one would have any of the problems they had with these aliens when they were on VOY and would like them all right off the bat.

The thing that struck me that the talk quickly turned into Kazon ships vs. Federation Starships... which strikes me as an invasion. Do the Kazon have the capability to get to the Barzan Wormhole? Its questionable at best.

 

[Anwar]

They aren't all localized in one region, they're spread out in various areas. But it was only one group of Kazon that wanted Voyager, so when they got past them there was little point in seeing more Kazon later and further away.

It would be nice to see the various Delta Quadrant species using the wormhole as it disappears and reappears in different points of the DQ and AQ to see what's on our side. Hirogen Hunters deciding to hunt Klingons, the Malon wanting to use inhabited primitive worlds as labor camps or toxic dump sites, Vidiian organ raids, etc. Since the writers would now have tons of cannon fodder this would go over better with the audience.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

It's interesting question actually, here are my rambling thoughts

The Kazon

Are far too underpowered to pose any kind of threat to the federation, OR Romulans or Klingons. I doubt there would even be a war, as you say voyager was more than a match for them, so a small fleet consisting of say Galaxy class, Nebula class, couple of Akira class and an Excelsior would make them crap their metaphorical pants, I belive truce would be the best option.

Vidiians, again are smart, they would not last in a war with the federation, i think that there would be aid from the federation and an effort to help them, starfleets EMH programs could be valuable help to them

Talaxians, join the federation

Malon, don't seem to be "big time" enough to be a serious threat, would have serious issues with the federation, who by that time had soverign, promethius and defiant class vessels which far outgun voyager

Borg, don't need a wormhole really so i doubt they become a problem.

Hirogen, I seriously don't see as much of a problem, they would only go after isolated ships, could be some issues, but i see starfleet shutting them down.

So yeah, i think due to the nature of Voyager, these races on the whole are not threat enough to worry starfleet, because they are designed to be just weak enough that voyager alone can survive them, a barrage of quantum torpedoes should handle them well enough imo.

Janeway:

"Hello Kazons, we brought some friends for you to meet"

lol awesome. that'll teach them to pick on the lone Starfleet vessel

 

[Satyrquaze]

^ I rest my case.

 

[Finn]

Uh...

Because it WAS unstable. When the shuttles went through in "The Price", it sent them to the DQ, to more or less the same area that "False Profits" mostly took place in. Whereas the probe sent through originally by the Barzans ended up in the GQ, thus, that's where the shuttles expected to end up, and why Data and Geordi were surprised to find they were in the DQ.

My only point was that if the thing WERE stable, as the OP proposes, it would probably go where it went the first time: the GQ.

You said that the wormhole hardly led to the doorsteps of the races Voyager visited. The events of False Profits negated that comment. It moves all over the places. There is a chance it might have popped up somewhere in Kazon space or Viidian territory at least once.

And how do you know the Barzan wormhole originally led to the Gamma Quadrant? All we know was that when the Barzans found it, the exit was in the GQ.

Wh-
Ghaaaa

I said that IF the wormhole were stable and IF said stable wormhole did indeed lead to the GQ, then in that case it would hardly be on the doorstep of any species VOY encountered.

I don't KNOW the wormhole originally led to the GQ; since it was, in fact, unstable at that end, it could have led damn near anywhere. The GQ is just where the terminus happened to be when the Barzan probe went through it.

It's been correctly pointed out that the terminus location that the Ferengi and Starfleet shuttles emerged from during "The Price" isn't the same as the one in "False Profits." For one thing, there was no planet visible in "The Price", and as I recall, in "False Profits", the wormhole was quite close to the planet. For another, after the Starfleet shuttle leaves and the Ferengi shuttle stays behind in "The Price", that terminus takes off and changes location again. This is in addition to what Timo pointed out about Voyager not being anywhere near the GQ/DQ border at this point in the show.

Since it WAS unstable, there is in fact no way to know where it's been, or how many different exit points it might have had prior to what we saw in "The Price". So technically, we can't know where it would exit if it were stable, either; if it didn't jump around at all, who knows where its terminus might be. I just figured that the first place we hear about in the original ep - the spot in the GQ where the Barzan probe emerged - seemed like the most logical choice.

Right. I agree with everything you said. I was just responding to your remark about that terminus in The Price. The Viidian space probably was big given how long they have been warp capable (I think it was implied a few times that they had a society like UFP millenia ago, maybe in Fury?). It is possible the area we saw in TNG's The Price was within the far edge of Viidian space. We just don't know.

My point was that we can't assume none of the races Voyager encountered during the first two seasons could be found in the area where the Ferengi first got stranded.

 

[Finn]

It's no more an "invasion" than using the Bajoran Wormhole to explore the Gamma Quadrant was. Only difference is that instead of there being one group of jerks who claim that everything in the Quadrant is theirs (Dominion) there would be several groups of jerks (Kazon, Krenim, Hierarchy, etc) along with random roaming "gangs" (Hirogen, Vidiians) and one big nasty (the 8472 aliens) who doesn't give a damn who or where you're from.

And that, since this is potentially a TNG storyline, no one would have any of the problems they had with these aliens when they were on VOY and would like them all right off the bat.

Why the mention of Kazon, Kremin and the Hierarchy? All three exist thousands of light years from each other, and probably never had heard of each other. Chances are Kazon would be an issue without any encounters with the other two since the Federation would be busy with the races Voyager encountered during the first two seasons.

 

[Anwar]

The Kazon and Vidiians were encountered in the same season, they can't be that far apart.

And the Borg knew about the Kazon and the Krenim, so they're likely fully aware of all the VOY Alien species.

 

[Finn]

^Which timeline? Before and After might have been in a timeline where the Borg didn't block their way, and that the Kremin Imperium was thriving.

Or sometimes after BoA, they were supposed to find a wormhole or something.....

 

[Saito S]

Right. I agree with everything you said. I was just responding to your remark about that terminus in The Price. The Viidian space probably was big given how long they have been warp capable (I think it was implied a few times that they had a society like UFP millenia ago, maybe in Fury?). It is possible the area we saw in TNG's The Price was within the far edge of Viidian space. We just don't know.

My point was that we can't assume none of the races Voyager encountered during the first two seasons could be found in the area where the Ferengi first got stranded.

OH. Oops.
Sorry, I totally misinterpreted. Thought you were asking how it would have ended up where it was in "False Profits" if it were stable, or something... I was thinking, man, how much clearer can I be? But yes, I see what you are saying now, and that's a good point. The Vidiians just might have territory near where the shuttles emerged... though actually, come to think of it, I wonder how long those two Ferengi idiots could reasonably survive in their little shuttle once any nearby Vidiians became aware of them...

^ I rest my case.

To be fair, on this topic of the Kazon, invasion vs. exploration, etc... let's not forget that the Kazon were shown to be extremely unreasonable and extremely aggressive, at least virtually all the Kazon we saw on the show were those things. Their problems with Voyager were entirely of their own making.

That said, I don't think too much would happen if a stable Barzan wormhole were being used by Starfleet to explore the DQ. They might attack a lone ship or two, but once Starfleet was aware of the threat they posed, they would simply send ships in pairs, and make sure that non-Starfleet ships had an escort. Voyager was almost WINNING that fight in "Basics" before the dude blew himself up; can you imagine how even a relatively large group of Kazon warships would fare against, say, Voyager, and a Nebula? That would be a rout. Whatever threat the Kazon posed initially would dissipate rather quickly, simply on the basis of the fact that they are no match for Starfleet on the whole; as dumb as the Kazon could sometimes be, I think that it wouldn't take more than a couple really bad losses before they began to just steer clear of Federation vessels. And since Starfleet isn't in the business of seeking out those who don't threaten them anymore and giving them a bloody nose for no reason, that would signal the end of hostilities.

Stranded Federation crews, smaller ships on their own that aren't as well armed as Starfleet's, and the like would still have to be careful.

The Vidiians are potentially a much bigger threat. I somehow don't get the impression that they are prone to declaring war on others, but their technology seems to be much more advanced than the Kazon's. And they have shown little concern for the risk they run when attacking a ship belonging to a larger power (that said power could get ticked and declare war on them), so any lone ships - even Starfleet ships - are potential targets. On the other hand, the UFP might try to offer assistance in curing the Phage as incentive to stop attacking people...

The Krenim... well, I doubt that the UFP itself would become a target for Annorax' crazy quest; being halfway across the galaxy would - one would think - limit the potential effects that the erasure of the Federation would have on the Imperium. Still, a YOH-type story with a larger scope cold be pretty interesting.

The Hirogen would be a problem from day one, and never really stop being so, but only in the form of isolated, chance encounters. Given the nature of their society, I don't see much potential for any kind of sustained, large-scale conflict. They are just freakin dangerous, even in small numbers.

Species 8472... well, other Starfleet ships wouldn't fare any better against them than Voyager did. On the other hand, the Borg wouldn't have not attacked them in this alternate reality we are discussing, so they would still play a role. As with YOH, we might end up with a story similar to "Scorpion", but simply with a larger scope.

Since the writers would now have tons of cannon fodder this would go over better with the audience.

Cannon fodder - defined, apparently quite rigidly the way you are using it, as "known, familiar allies getting smashed to smithereens" - is nowhere near THE defining factor in making an interesting, threatening alien race.

Then there's already a positive first impression for all these aliens instead of immediate negativity.

And that, since this is potentially a TNG storyline, no one would have any of the problems they had with these aliens when they were on VOY and would like them all right off the bat.

Seriously? Back to this?

No. The Kazon are dumb, and were poorly received for that reason. If they had appeared on TNG and had been exactly the same in every way, they would be just as poorly received.

This notion of yours that "the audience" hated everything about Voyager right off the bat simply because it was Voyager is pure fiction.

 

[JES]

I think that the Vidiians would probably be among the more "interesting" races that the Federation would have to deal with.
I see two possible scenarios:
The Federation offers to assistance in finding a cure for the Phage, in exchange for not attempting to steal organs from Federation members. After the Federation establishes a positive reputation in that part of the galaxy, I see it a possibility that other nearby races may ask the Federation to step in and stop the Vidiian raids on them. Perhaps one of the conditions under which they would devote a considerable amount of resources to finding a cure for the Phage would be that the Vidiians would stop attacking any races that request protection. The hard part would be convincing the Vidiians that the Federation can actually improve their condition.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Federation was able to treat the Phage relatively soon, perhaps by providing artificial organs, like the artificial heart that Picard has in his chest. I don't think it is out of the question that the Federation has the ability to clone or replicate organs; all they would need is the right sample genetic material.
I see it a possibility that the Vidiians and Federation devote some of their best medical researchers to try and find a cure. Maybe they could use nanites to individually destroy Phage cells at the genetic level. I'm actually a little surprised that the Vidiians don't already use this.

The second possibility is that either the Vidiians become impatient and break off any truce with the Federation, or the Federation medical researchers eventually come to the conclusion that they have no way of curing the Phage. Either way, I think that the Federation would feel pity for the Vidiians, as well as want to take away the reason for them to go on their organ raids, and eventually their reason for slavery. I highly doubt that the Federation would send the Vidiians medical help without escorts, unless the Vidiians don't try to steal organs from the first crew to encounter them. If the Vidiians betray the Federation, and try to take any medical personal who were sent to assist them, there will likely be at least one escort for each major medical vessel nearby, and a fight will break out at that moment.

After that, relations would break down, and war would break out. There are two more possibilities: either the war would continue until one side is forced to surrender, or after a while, the Vidiians, finding themselves outmatched against Starfleet's vast resources, are either offered a truce, or request one, which eventually leads to a neutral zone, like with the Cardassians.

 

[The Wormhole]

^Which timeline? Before and After might have been in a timeline where the Borg didn't block their way, and that the Kremin Imperium was thriving.

In the Voyager episode where Seven of Nine was experiencing the various personalities of people assimilated by the Borg, one of them was said to be a Krenim temporal scientist. That's all we know of the Krenim-Borg interaction.

 

[Anwar]

Cannon fodder - defined, apparently quite rigidly the way you are using it, as "known, familiar allies getting smashed to smithereens" - is nowhere near THE defining factor in making an interesting, threatening alien race.

Like how the Dominion were interesting by NOT destroying all Alpha Quadrant vessels in the GQ, slaughtering a Bajoran colony and destroying a Galaxy-class starship in their first episode?

Or how the Borg were interesting WITHOUT nearly destroying the ENT-D in THEIR first episode?

Seriously? Back to this?

No. The Kazon are dumb, and were poorly received for that reason. If they had appeared on TNG and had been exactly the same in every way, they would be just as poorly received.

Hardly.

This notion of yours that "the audience" hated everything about Voyager right off the bat simply because it was Voyager is pure fiction.

Look at the reactions to the Kazon, Vidiians, Hirogen, 8472 and Krenim compared to the reactions to the Borg or Dominion or Cardassians. It'll become clear soon enough.

 

[Saito S]

Cannon fodder - defined, apparently quite rigidly the way you are using it, as "known, familiar allies getting smashed to smithereens" - is nowhere near THE defining factor in making an interesting, threatening alien race.

Like how the Dominion were interesting by NOT destroying all Alpha Quadrant vessels in the GQ, slaughtering a Bajoran colony and destroying a Galaxy-class starship in their first episode?

Or how the Borg were interesting WITHOUT nearly destroying the ENT-D in THEIR first episode?

I said "defining."

And what does the Borg almost destroying the hero ship have to do with "cannon fodder"?

And besides...

actually, no, forget it. I'm not getting drawn into a huge tangent about this.

Seriously? Back to this?

No. The Kazon are dumb, and were poorly received for that reason. If they had appeared on TNG and had been exactly the same in every way, they would be just as poorly received.

Hardly.

This notion of yours that "the audience" hated everything about Voyager right off the bat simply because it was Voyager is pure fiction.

Look at the reactions to the Kazon, Vidiians, Hirogen, 8472 and Krenim compared to the reactions to the Borg or Dominion or Cardassians. It'll become clear soon enough.

It will NEVER "become clear" (I love how you tell me to "go look at the reactions", as if we haven't already hashed this insanity out multiple times), because it's a complete load of bullshit.

And that's all I'm going to say on either of the above subjects. Not going to be responsible for some massive thread derailment by continuing this.

^Which timeline? Before and After might have been in a timeline where the Borg didn't block their way, and that the Kremin Imperium was thriving.

In the Voyager episode where Seven of Nine was experiencing the various personalities of people assimilated by the Borg, one of them was said to be a Krenim temporal scientist. That's all we know of the Krenim-Borg interaction.

One of the interesting things about "Before and After" is that since Kes is jumping backward through time, we first see her talking to Paris at some point after the "Year of Hell", then we jump back further INTO it. Which suggests that what Kes saw was a version of the YOH events that WEREN'T reset at the end; Voyager's crew had to simply move on after whatever events took place.

Anyway, regarding the Borg: that Krenim scientist must have been something of a failure compared to Annorax. If the Borg had been able to assimilate the knowledge of how to manipulate the temporal continuum the way Annorax was, they probably would have used it.

On the Vidiians: minor point of clarification, JES: the Feds and the Cardies had a "demilitarized zone", which meant that each side was permitted to have only a civilian presence there; any military presence in the zone had to be for a specific, justifiable reason. A "neutral" zone is what the Feds had with the Klingons in TOS, and with the Romulans in TNG: both sides were forbidden to even enter the damn thing. An actual neutral zone seems like it would be necessary if things got that bad with the Vidiians. On the other hand, the Feds may not feel comfortable simply leaving the fate of other species around Vidiian space to chance... especially if they had promised a cure, and been unable to actually find one; they might feel responsible for heightened Vidiian aggression. As to your point about the Vidiians being unable to cure the thing after all this time, despite their technological sophistication... maybe the Phage is just THAT tough. You wondered why they didn't use something along the lines of nanites, to attack the Phage at the genetic level. Maybe they DID try that, and it failed. If that were the case, one wonders how much success the Feds would have. The Think Tank claimed to have cured it, but I don't believe that was ever confirmed.

 

[Anwar]

The Vidiians would warrant a Quarantine Zone encompassing all Vidiian worlds, so that the Phage wouldn't mutate and spread to other species.

I said "defining."

And what does the Borg almost destroying the hero ship have to do with "cannon fodder"

Even before the ENT-D met them, the Borg had been the ones effortlessly destroying Neutral Zone outposts on both sides of the Zone. So hundreds were killed by them already as a sign that something powerful existed, before we saw them nearly destroy the Hero Ship.

Again, cannon fodder.