Cause and Effect - my one wish

[Gorn Captain]

At the end of the episode, when the Bozeman emerges from the temporal rift, and Picard tells Kelsey Grammer that he commands the Enterprise, shouldn't Grammer/Bateson/whoever say "The Enterprise? Sir, you are speaking of the most renowned ship in all of Starfleet! i think I would recognize her, or recognize you as James T. Kirk if it were so!"

 

[Christopher]

I prefer to resist the idea that characters in the Trek universe are Trekkies -- i.e. that they all engage in hero worship of Kirk and the Enterprise and consider it the most important ship in the universe. In particular, I think it's a bit demeaning to other Starfleet crews to expect them to talk about how much better the Enterprise is than they are. Bateson says "Your vessel is not familiar to us," which is sufficient to convey his skepticism without giving him a gratuitous fanboy moment.

Also, keep in mind that the Bozeman was lost in 2278, about five years after TMP. We don't know whether Kirk was still in command of the Enterprise at that point; he might have already gone back to the admiralty.

 

[Finn]

At the end of the episode, when the Bozeman emerges from the temporal rift, and Picard tells Kelsey Grammer that he commands the Enterprise, shouldn't Grammer/Bateson/whoever say "The Enterprise? Sir, you are speaking of the most renowned ship in all of Starfleet! i think I would recognize her, or recognize you as James T. Kirk if it were so!"

That would have ruined a great episode. And he was from the 2270s. Kirk might have not become the legend Sisko remembered him as, at that point. Actually, there isn't much from TOS that would make Kirk a legend (He stole a cloaking device after donning Rommie make up, and have the Enterprise travel in circles, not as groundbreaking as the Picard Maneuver).

Actually if I had my way, I would have had Kirk as an obscure captain unknown to Janeway and Sisko (who didn't seem big on history). I'd buy Picard since he was more of a History buff.

But even if Kirk was a legend in Bateson's day, that quote is very cringeworthy.

 

[Cyke101]

"The Enterprise? Sir, you are speaking of the most renowned ship in all of Starfleet! i think I would recognize her, or recognize you as James T. Kirk if it were so!"

That quote makes it sound as if Bateson was ready to slap Picard with a white glove for besmirching Kirk's name, and then demand satisfaction. Maybe they still use old timey Southern dueling pistols in the 23rd century?

 

[Christopher]

Actually, there isn't much from TOS that would make Kirk a legend (He stole a cloaking device after donning Rommie make up, and have the Enterprise travel in circles, not as groundbreaking as the Picard Maneuver).

Actually if I had my way, I would have had Kirk as an obscure captain unknown to Janeway and Sisko (who didn't seem big on history). I'd buy Picard since he was more of a History buff.

Well, Kirk did save the Earth from V'Ger five years earlier. That alone would've probably made him widely known. Though not as famous as he probably became later on when he saved the Earth from a second all-powerful alien probe and then saved the Federation President from an assassin at Camp Khitomer.

So I can buy that Kirk is well-known for his accomplishments. I just don't believe that he's the only Starfleet captain who was known for great things. What about Captain Garth, who was Kirk's own hero? What about Pike or Wesley? Heck, for all we know, Captain Bateson was as accomplished as Kirk, had saved as many planets, averted as many wars, and made as many first contacts. Kirk could've been just one of many heroic Starfleet captains, not the single one who stood out from the pack.

 

[sonak]

I prefer to resist the idea that characters in the Trek universe are Trekkies -- i.e. that they all engage in hero worship of Kirk and the Enterprise and consider it the most important ship in the universe. In particular, I think it's a bit demeaning to other Starfleet crews to expect them to talk about how much better the Enterprise is than they are. Bateson says "Your vessel is not familiar to us," which is sufficient to convey his skepticism without giving him a gratuitous fanboy moment.

Also, keep in mind that the Bozeman was lost in 2278, about five years after TMP. We don't know whether Kirk was still in command of the Enterprise at that point; he might have already gone back to the admiralty.

you keep bringing up this idea that it's only in Trek fans' minds that Kirk and his crew are the most famous in the UFP and the Klingon Empire.


This is simply not the case.

In TMP and TVH, they literally saved Earth, and the UFP President mentions this in TUC.

The crew stood trial before the ENTIRE FEDERATION in TVH and TUC.

Kirk was so important to the Klingons that the Klingon ambassador declares in TVH

"there will be no peace as long as Kirk lives!" (hardly a declaration to make about a random captain)

Harriman refers to the Kirk, Scotty, and Chekov as LIVING LEGENDS in Generations.


Look at the DS9 crew's attitudes towards Kirk and co. in TAT. Sisko breaks the temporal prime directive just to get Kirk's autograph!


finally, they keep renaming ships Enterprise and adding a letter just to honor the TOS crew!



there's abundant on-screen evidence, as well as direct quotes that reflect the idea that Kirk and his crew are supposed to be a truly legendary crew. This is not something rabid fanboys made up.




(didn't see your second response before posting, so you address some of the TVH, TUC, and TMP issues but other points remain)

 

[Finn]

I thought it was Decker who saved Earth?

 

[Gojira]

At the end of the episode, when the Bozeman emerges from the temporal rift, and Picard tells Kelsey Grammer that he commands the Enterprise, shouldn't Grammer/Bateson/whoever say "The Enterprise? Sir, you are speaking of the most renowned ship in all of Starfleet! i think I would recognize her, or recognize you as James T. Kirk if it were so!"

I think having him say"You;re not Captain Kirk" would have sufficed.

 

[Cyke101]

I prefer to resist the idea that characters in the Trek universe are Trekkies -- i.e. that they all engage in hero worship of Kirk and the Enterprise and consider it the most important ship in the universe. In particular, I think it's a bit demeaning to other Starfleet crews to expect them to talk about how much better the Enterprise is than they are. Bateson says "Your vessel is not familiar to us," which is sufficient to convey his skepticism without giving him a gratuitous fanboy moment.

Also, keep in mind that the Bozeman was lost in 2278, about five years after TMP. We don't know whether Kirk was still in command of the Enterprise at that point; he might have already gone back to the admiralty.

you keep bringing up this idea that it's only in Trek fans' minds that Kirk and his crew are the most famous in the UFP and the Klingon Empire.


This is simply not the case.

In TMP and TVH, they literally saved Earth, and the UFP President mentions this in TUC.

The crew stood trial before the ENTIRE FEDERATION in TVH and TUC.

Kirk was so important to the Klingons that the Klingon ambassador declares in TVH

"there will be no peace as long as Kirk lives!" (hardly a declaration to make about a random captain)

Harriman refers to the Kirk, Scotty, and Chekov as LIVING LEGENDS in Generations.


Look at the DS9 crew's attitudes towards Kirk and co. in TAT. Sisko breaks the temporal prime directive just to get Kirk's autograph!


finally, they keep renaming ships Enterprise and adding a letter just to honor the TOS crew!



there's abundant on-screen evidence, as well as direct quotes that reflect the idea that Kirk and his crew are supposed to be a truly legendary crew. This is not something rabid fanboys made up.




(didn't see your second response before posting, so you address some of the TVH, TUC, and TMP issues but other points remain)

However, the events of Cause and Effect put Bateman and the Bozeman as after TMP and around the time of TWOK. Most of the examples that you cited are after these other accomplishments, and the DS9 crew have the advantage of history books for hindsight.

As such, I too would like to think that there are other Starfleet vessels out there with notable histories and achievements. That's even true in the TNG era, when Picard meets with his equals, a collection of other legendary captains, in Conspiracy. The exploits of Voyager and Defiant, by virtue of being hero ships, are just as considerable as Kirk and Picard's crews as well. Had Sulu's Excelsior gotten its own show, it probably would have had just the same amount of feats, too. Couple that with the fact that TOS never established the Enterprise as the flagship, and that Kirk had his own heroes as Christopher pointed out, it lends to the idea that there were other exceptional ships and crews out there.

 

[sonak]

I prefer to resist the idea that characters in the Trek universe are Trekkies -- i.e. that they all engage in hero worship of Kirk and the Enterprise and consider it the most important ship in the universe. In particular, I think it's a bit demeaning to other Starfleet crews to expect them to talk about how much better the Enterprise is than they are. Bateson says "Your vessel is not familiar to us," which is sufficient to convey his skepticism without giving him a gratuitous fanboy moment.

Also, keep in mind that the Bozeman was lost in 2278, about five years after TMP. We don't know whether Kirk was still in command of the Enterprise at that point; he might have already gone back to the admiralty.

you keep bringing up this idea that it's only in Trek fans' minds that Kirk and his crew are the most famous in the UFP and the Klingon Empire.


This is simply not the case.

In TMP and TVH, they literally saved Earth, and the UFP President mentions this in TUC.

The crew stood trial before the ENTIRE FEDERATION in TVH and TUC.

Kirk was so important to the Klingons that the Klingon ambassador declares in TVH

"there will be no peace as long as Kirk lives!" (hardly a declaration to make about a random captain)

Harriman refers to the Kirk, Scotty, and Chekov as LIVING LEGENDS in Generations.


Look at the DS9 crew's attitudes towards Kirk and co. in TAT. Sisko breaks the temporal prime directive just to get Kirk's autograph!


finally, they keep renaming ships Enterprise and adding a letter just to honor the TOS crew!



there's abundant on-screen evidence, as well as direct quotes that reflect the idea that Kirk and his crew are supposed to be a truly legendary crew. This is not something rabid fanboys made up.




(didn't see your second response before posting, so you address some of the TVH, TUC, and TMP issues but other points remain)

However, the events of Cause and Effect put Bateman and the Bozeman as after TMP and around the time of TWOK. Most of the examples that you cited are after these other accomplishments, and the DS9 crew have the advantage of history books for hindsight.

As such, I too would like to think that there are other Starfleet vessels out there with notable histories and achievements. That's even true in the TNG era, when Picard meets with his equals, a collection of other legendary captains, in Conspiracy. The exploits of Voyager and Defiant, by virtue of being hero ships, are just as considerable as Kirk and Picard's crews as well. Had Sulu's Excelsior gotten its own show, it probably would have had just the same amount of feats, too. Couple that with the fact that TOS never established the Enterprise as the flagship, and that Kirk had his own heroes as Christopher pointed out, it lends to the idea that there were other exceptional ships and crews out there.

Yeah, I get the timeframe issue with the Bozeman. I was more responding to Christopher's argument, which has come up before, that this idea that Kirk and his crew are well-known legends within the Trek universe is something that Trek fans just made up because they watch the show and follow their adventures.



I was just pointing out the abundant on-screen evidence for the opposite case: that Kirk and the Enterprise crew are famous even within the fictional Trek-verse.




Yes, other ships have adventures as well, but the original Enterprise crew are legends beyond that.

They were the Michael Jordan of Starfleet.

 

[Christopher]

you keep bringing up this idea that it's only in Trek fans' minds that Kirk and his crew are the most famous in the UFP and the Klingon Empire.

No, I keep bringing up the idea that Kirk and his crew shouldn't be assumed to be the only famous or important Starfleet officers in the entire universe. We should keep in mind that the view we get of the ST-verse is highly selective, that we're not experiencing it the way an actual inhabitant of the world would. We see Kirk as the only 23rd-century captain that mattered because his were the only adventures we saw, but what about all the starships we didn't see? Does it make sense to assume that none of their captains ever did anything important? Does it make sense to assume that earlier heroes like Archer and Garth (and maybe Pike and Robau and the like) were completely forgotten? I'm not saying Kirk wasn't well-known as a hero, I'm saying that logically, he should be one of many famous, heroic Starfleet explorers.

And I'm saying that even if people in the Federation are aware of James T. Kirk as a heroic contemporary or historical figure, it doesn't follow that they'd talk about him the same way a rabid Trekkie would. It's one thing to make a credible in-universe acknowledgment of the fame of a man who's accomplished important things, but it's something very different to have characters in the story reduced to mouthpieces for fanboy squeeing.

In TMP and TVH, they literally saved Earth, and the UFP President mentions this in TUC.

And I mentioned it myself in my earlier post.

The crew stood trial before the ENTIRE FEDERATION in TVH and TUC.

No, they stood trial before the Federation Council. Since that trial involved the consequences of highly classified events surrounding the Genesis Affair, I would assume it was a closed session not broadcast to the general public.

Kirk was so important to the Klingons that the Klingon ambassador declares in TVH

"there will be no peace as long as Kirk lives!" (hardly a declaration to make about a random captain)

Context is everything. Remember, that declaration was made only three months after an incident in which Kirk and his officers, on an illegal rogue mission, had killed a Klingon captain and most of his crew and hijacked their ship. Ambassador Kamarag's declaration was using that specific incident as an excuse to reject the Federation's diplomatic overtures -- and to dodge the real issue, which was that it was the Klingons who had aggressed and engaged in espionage. Making noise about wanting Kirk's head was just a smokescreen to avoid admitting the Klingons' own fault in the matter. It was a convenient political ploy, not a reaction to some kind of free-floating Kirkian super-fame.

Harriman refers to the Kirk, Scotty, and Chekov as LIVING LEGENDS in Generations.


Look at the DS9 crew's attitudes towards Kirk and co. in TAT. Sisko breaks the temporal prime directive just to get Kirk's autograph!


finally, they keep renaming ships Enterprise and adding a letter just to honor the TOS crew!

Yes, and those are just the kind of fanboyish authorial insertions that I wish the writers wouldn't keep throwing in. It's sacrificing credibility for the sake of self-indulgence.

I thought it was Decker who saved Earth?

Good point. Truth be told, Kirk didn't really accomplish much that was decisive in TMP. Spock figured out what was going on and Decker took the decisive action. And both of them would've probably been there anyway if Kirk had stayed behind a desk. Although it's possible that Decker would've been more reluctant to take "unwarranted" risks and thereby failed to gain sufficient information in time.

 

[Cyke101]

Yes, other ships have adventures as well, but the original Enterprise crew are legends beyond that.

They were the Michael Jordan of Starfleet.

We don't really get a sense of that in TOS, though. They seemed to be victims of circumstance a good chunk of the time. Indeed, even in the epic-ness of TMP they were assigned the V'Ger mission not because they were the best that Starfleet had to offer, but because they were the only decent ship within intercept range. But the main point is that that they weren't always legends, and even then they simply weren't the only legends around. I would think then that much of the conversation would need to take into account roughly when they're considered legends.

On a tangent, I suppose it brings up the side-question of how well-regarded within the Federation Kirk and Co. are considered beside Archer and his crew. After all, Archer's crew not only managed to stop a cosmic time war beyond comprehension, but that stopping such a war helped create the Federation in the first place, topped off with his own ascension to the Presidency. Kirk has maneuvers named after him, but Archer's got planets. Archer is then essentially one of the Founding Fathers of the Federation.

 

[T'Girl]

you keep bringing up this idea that it's only in Trek fans' minds that Kirk and his crew are the most famous in the UFP and the Klingon Empire.

And I'm saying that even if people in the Federation are aware of James T. Kirk ..

But we're not talk about the Federation's general populace having knowledge of the existence of one James T. Kirk. But rather if Captain Bateson a Starship captain from 2278 is going to have knowledge of Admiral Kirk another Starship captain from 2278.

A present day American destroyer captain will know other American destroyer captains. A carrier captain will likely know all the other ten carrier captains. So perhaps a cruiser type starship captain from 2278 would have a better chance of knowing who the hell Kirk is (or was).

I thought it was Decker who saved Earth?

Good point. Truth be told, Kirk didn't really accomplish much that was decisive ...

Commanding officers are often the ones who receive credit for their ship's companies actions.

 

[Subcommander R.]

I think he'd be more weird-ed out by the strange pajama-uniforms and hotel-bridge on this weird-looking ship than by an Enterprise not under the command of Kirk.

 

[Gorn Captain]

"The Enterprise? Sir, you are speaking of the most renowned ship in all of Starfleet! i think I would recognize her, or recognize you as James T. Kirk if it were so!"

That quote makes it sound as if Bateson was ready to slap Picard with a white glove for besmirching Kirk's name, and then demand satisfaction. Maybe they still use old timey Southern dueling pistols in the 23rd century?

Apparently the irony in my post didn't come across. They had Kelsey Grammer cast in the part for some reason, and I was implying that he would express confusion when hearing the name Enterprise in a Frasier-like overdramatic way.

 

[Cyke101]

"The Enterprise? Sir, you are speaking of the most renowned ship in all of Starfleet! i think I would recognize her, or recognize you as James T. Kirk if it were so!"

That quote makes it sound as if Bateson was ready to slap Picard with a white glove for besmirching Kirk's name, and then demand satisfaction. Maybe they still use old timey Southern dueling pistols in the 23rd century?

Apparently the irony in my post didn't come across. They had Kelsey Grammer cast in the part for some reason, and I was implying that he would express confusion when hearing the name Enterprise in a Frasier-like overdramatic way.

Well, it's not irony, I think it's more impression. To me it just sounded more like a chivalrous Southern gentleman in a white suit.

 

[Christopher]

On a tangent, I suppose it brings up the side-question of how well-regarded within the Federation Kirk and Co. are considered beside Archer and his crew. After all, Archer's crew not only managed to stop a cosmic time war beyond comprehension, but that stopping such a war helped create the Federation in the first place, topped off with his own ascension to the Presidency. Kirk has maneuvers named after him, but Archer's got planets. Archer is then essentially one of the Founding Fathers of the Federation.

True, except that the "cosmic time war" was not public knowledge. Remember, in "The Naked Time," when the Enterprise was thrown back in time three days at the end, Spock reacted to it as the first confirmation of something that had only been theoretical until then. He had no knowledge that time travel had ever happened before. Therefore, the Temporal Cold War must've been classified until at least the TOS era.

But we're not talk about the Federation's general populace having knowledge of the existence of one James T. Kirk. But rather if Captain Bateson a Starship captain from 2278 is going to have knowledge of Admiral Kirk another Starship captain from 2278.

Well, first, as I said, we don't know whether Kirk was actually commanding the Enterprise in 2278. We know he regained command for the V'Ger mission in 2273, and we know that he went back to the Admiralty sometimed prior to 2285. We don't know when that transition occurred. (Although in my novella Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again, which covered that period, I follow Peter David's assumption from The Captain's Daughter that Kirk commanded a second 5-year mission that ended in 2278, then was promoted back to admiral and commandant of Starfleet Academy, but retained the Enterprise as his flagship for occasional special missions, with Spock as its captain.)

Second, the issue is not whether Bateson had heard of Kirk -- it's whether he'd engage in the kind of fanboyish worship of Kirk indicated in the initial post. Bateson would see Kirk as a colleague, not as a figure of legend who must have his praises sung at the drop of a hat.

Apparently the irony in my post didn't come across. They had Kelsey Grammer cast in the part for some reason, and I was implying that he would express confusion when hearing the name Enterprise in a Frasier-like overdramatic way.

"For some reason?" Why does there have to be a reason? They had him cast in the part because he's an actor who's capable of doing multiple roles, and they thought he was the right actor for this part. He's capable of doing far more than just playing Frasier Crane, and there's no reason why any given appearance of Grammer in another role should be reduced to merely a Frasier impression. Some people seem to think it's a laugh riot to have an actor in one role behave like he does in another, more famous role, but I think it's a lazy and obvious way to do an in-joke, and disrespectful to the actor's craft.

 

[sonak]

I don't think the Klingon ambassador's line was just about the circumstances in TSFS.


Remember, it's Kirk chosen deliberately in TUC because of his reputation among the Klingons. I don't think captains J.T. Esteban or Terrell had the same sort of intergalactic reputation.

And whether the examples in GEN, DS9's TAT, etc. are "fanboy insertions" or not, they're on-screen evidence for my point that Kirk and crew are legends.

Ignoring that because it goes against an argument is saying "well yeah, as long as I ignore the stuff that contradicts my point, I'm doing just fine."

again, it's obvious that other crews have their adventures and stuff. But from the TOS movies onwards, it's pretty clear that Kirk and his crew are famous figures.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think the Klingon ambassador's line was just about the circumstances in TSFS.

The dialogue speaks for itself:

KLINGON AMBASSADOR: ...Behold! The quintessential devil in these matters! James T. Kirk, renegade and terrorist! Not only is he responsible for the murder of a Klingon crew, the theft of a Klingon vessel. See now the real plot and intentions, Even as this Federation was negotiating a peace treaty with us, Kirk was secretly developing the Genesis torpedo, conceived by Kirk's son and test detonated by the Admiral himself! The result of this awesome energy was euphemistically called 'The Genesis Planet' ...A secret base from which to launch the annihilation of the Klingon people! We demand the extradition of Kirk! We demand justice!
SAREK: Klingon justice is a unique point of view, Mister President. ...Genesis was perfectly named. The creation of life not death. The Klingons shed the first blood while attempting to possess its secrets.
KLINGON AMBASSADOR: Vulcans are well known as the intellectual puppets of this Federation!
SAREK: Your vessel did destroy U.S.S. Grissom. Your men did kill Kirk's son. Do you deny these events?
KLINGON AMBASSADOR: We deny nothing! We have the right to preserve our race!
SAREK: Do you have the right to commit murder?
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Silence! Silence! There will be no further outbursts from the floor.
SAREK: Mister President, I have come to speak on behalf of the accused.
KLINGON AMBASSADOR: Personal bias! His son was saved by Kirk!
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Mister Ambassador, with all respect, the Council's deliberations are over.
KLINGON AMBASSADOR: Then Kirk goes unpunished?
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: Admiral Kirk has been charged with nine violations of Starfleet regulations.
KLINGON AMBASSADOR: Starfleet regulations? That's outrageous! Remember this well. There shall be no peace as long as Kirk lives!

It was specifically Kirk's involvement with the Genesis affair that the ambassador was referring to. He couldn't possibly have made that clearer. He didn't say "We want Kirk dead because he's this almighty cosmic hero who's more important than anyone else in the Federation," he specifically cited the events of the previous two films as his reasons for declaring Kirk a war criminal.

Remember, it's Kirk chosen deliberately in TUC because of his reputation among the Klingons. I don't think captains J.T. Esteban or Terrell had the same sort of intergalactic reputation.

"Intergalactic?" Since when did the Klingons live in a different galaxy?

Anyway, glossing over the pervasive misuse of the word "intergalactic" to mean "interstellar," you're conflating two separate questions, a specific reputation with the Klingons and a generalized reputation as some all-powerful, godlike cosmic hero. The two are not equivalent.

Let's go to the transcripts again:

SPOCK: We have volunteered to rendezvous with the Klingon vessel that is bringing Chancellor Gorkon to Earth, and to escort him safely through Federation space.
KIRK: Me?
C in C: Well, there are Klingons who feel the same way about the peace treaty as yourself and Admiral Cartwright. But they'll think twice about attacking the Enterprise under your command.
...
KIRK: We volunteered?
SPOCK: There's an old Vulcan proverb. 'Only Nixon could go to China.'

Kirk was chosen for several reasons. One, implicitly, is his connection to Spock, who was the chief negotiator of the conference. Another is that he's known for his hostility toward the Klingons -- as a result of the events of TSFS. He's a hardliner, and thus his willingness to participate in the negotiations would be symbolically important at persuading Klingon hardliners to participate. Note that the same goes for Admiral Cartwright, but he's not a starship commander, so he couldn't be the one to go. And yes, he's sent because the Klingons are aware of his reputation as an effective military commander that they'd think twice before attacking. But that's not the same thing as the whole galaxy being lost in fangasms about how wonderful James T. Kirk is. It's a military assessment of a known commander by his enemies. There are probably other Starfleet captains who have a similar military reputation among the Klingons, but Kirk was chosen because of a combination of that and other factors.

And whether the examples in GEN, DS9's TAT, etc. are "fanboy insertions" or not, they're on-screen evidence for my point that Kirk and crew are legends.

They're evidence that by the 24th century, Kirk's reputation has been built up to a legendary status by historians. It is grossly invalid to use them as evidence of Kirk's reputation as of 2278.

again, it's obvious that other crews have their adventures and stuff. But from the TOS movies onwards, it's pretty clear that Kirk and his crew are famous figures.

I have never denied that. What I have said, repeatedly and clearly, is that I don't accept the assumption that they're the only famous people in the 23rd-century Starfleet, that everyone who even heard the term "Kirk" or "Enterprise" mentioned would immediately begin waxing lyrical about their godlike magnificence.

After all, even fame is relative. Captain James Cook is famous for his "discovery" of Hawai'i, but would you seriously expect that every time you mentioned Hawai'i to any given person, they'd immediately begin raving about how awesome Captain Cook was? Every historical figure who's legendary to some is going to be unimportant to others, and probably criticized and discredited by others still. I'm sure that if I went to a bulletin board devoted to, say, the history of the English Civil War, I'd see posters praising legendary heroes that I've never even heard of, or have heard of in passing but never really given much thought to. It's a big planet, and it's only one planet. In a civilization as huge as the Federation, anyone's fame is unlikely to be universal. Someone who's admired and revered as a legend in some circles is going to be unknown to a lot of other people. That's the way it already is today in our increasingly compartmentalized pop culture (for instance, I've only recently become aware that there's a singer named Justin Bieber who seems to have been famous for a while, and I still know nothing about him beyond seeing a trailer for a movie about him recently). It's bound to be far more the case in an interstellar civilization.

 

[Cyke101]

On a tangent, I suppose it brings up the side-question of how well-regarded within the Federation Kirk and Co. are considered beside Archer and his crew. After all, Archer's crew not only managed to stop a cosmic time war beyond comprehension, but that stopping such a war helped create the Federation in the first place, topped off with his own ascension to the Presidency. Kirk has maneuvers named after him, but Archer's got planets. Archer is then essentially one of the Founding Fathers of the Federation.

True, except that the "cosmic time war" was not public knowledge. Remember, in "The Naked Time," when the Enterprise was thrown back in time three days at the end, Spock reacted to it as the first confirmation of something that had only been theoretical until then. He had no knowledge that time travel had ever happened before. Therefore, the Temporal Cold War must've been classified until at least the TOS era.

If the scale of the war was hidden, at the very least the attack on Florida and Enterprise's year-long mission and saving Earth from the superweapon are public knowledge. The ship and crew received a hero's welcome upon its return at the beginning of the fourth season, so even if the true scale of the war was hidden, the scale of the mission itself was enough to earn the NX-01 a healthy, near-legend reputation.