The Wrath Of Khan Questions??

[F. King Daniel]

We saw schematics of a Klingon battlecruiser on the briefing room screen in either "The Enterprise Incident" or "Day of the Dove". Considering we "first" saw the D7/K'tinga battlecruiser (in-universe) over 100 years earlier in ENT: "Unexpected", I would expect 23rd century Starfleet to have aquired quite a bit of info on them.

But to be honest, Trek is rife with inconsistancies about Klingons. In STVI, Uhura didn't speak Klingon and McCoy didn't know anything about Klingon anatomy. You'd really expect them to know more about their arch nemesis.

 

[Albertese]

Wait... were the Klingons all that secretive in TOS? Watching the show makes it seem to me that the crew were actually pretty familiar with them, as much as any 1960's American navy crew might be familiar with Russian and Soviet culture (this was intentional given that the Klingon Empire was meant to be the analog to the Soviet Union). As far as Marla the historian knowing klingon proverbs, it could be that she happened to know this one, perhaps because it's actually an old Sicilian proverb which the Klingons also use. Perhaps the fact that they independently arrived at the same proverb as a human culture was of interest to her, maybe she was fascinated by parallel developments in alien cultures, which would make her more useful on a starship than a strictly Earth-focused historian.

--Alex

 

[Greg Cox]

As a historian, Marla would have picked up all kinds of miscellaneous knowledge. I figure she must have told him.

I thought she was a historian with a specialty on earth history. That said, even if she did know some klingon history (which seems unlikely based on the secrecy of them during TOS era), I can't imagine poetry/poverbs would be covered under history.

Just because she specialized in Earth history doesn't mean that she wasn't well-read in other matters.

I majored in Chemistry. Doesn't mean I didn't take classes on Russian literature and Japanese history, etc. Or that I didn't read an article on Libya in Time magazine last week.

Marla was interested in warriors and conquerors. So she read a book on Klingon culture at some point. Given that they were a major galactic power at the time, I'm sure Klingon Studies were a subject of great interest . . . .

 

[Therin of Andor]

As far as not realizing a planet was missing, I always wondered if someone working on the screenplay got confused with the roman numerals and meant "Ceti Alpha IV" instead of Ceti Alpha VI. "IV" would make more sense as it would make V into the fourth planet after the real fourth planet was gone and the Reliant crew could have simply counted the fourth planet from the star and said, "there it is."

Reliant had the old starcharts that were last updated by the Enterprise during "Space Seed". They were entering the system from the outer planets, and their new scans were undoubtedly affected by the Mutura Nebula, since they can't even tell if a group of humanoids were on the planet or simply a inanimate particle of matter that could be transplanted elsewhere. They'd find Ceti Alpha V and some debris where Ceti Alpha VI should have been (Khan said V's orbit was shifted by the explosion), then a gap, then four more inner planets.

Isn't it also possible that V and VI originally shared an orbit, so how would you know which one is which if one planet is missing? It would also be more likely to be seen as an explosion from Khan's location on V.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Therin, everything you said there makes sense except this:

and their new scans were undoubtedly affected by the Mutura Nebula

The Mutura Nebula is within impulse range of Regula, whereas the Ceti Alpha system is three days from Regula, at what I always believed were warp speeds. (However, I'll admit, it could be within impulse range, and Khan was just giving time for Kirk to arrive, but I doubt that.)

Furthermore, there is no evidence in the story that sensors are affected outside the Nebula, which is why they have to go inside to have the benefit of its masking effects. Sensors are down in the story explicitly due to battle damage.

No explanation is given that I am aware of as to why Chekov can't scan the life forms on Ceti Alpha V. Perhaps the writers intended the "craylon gas" in its atmosphere to be the masking agent. Perhaps the planet was contaminated by whatever destroyed Ceti Alpha VI. In any case, we just kinda have to "go with the flow" on that one.

 

[Janos]

Just because she specialized in Earth history doesn't mean that she wasn't well-read in other matters.

I majored in Chemistry. Doesn't mean I didn't take classes on Russian literature and Japanese history, etc. Or that I didn't read an article on Libya in Time magazine last week.

Marla was interested in warriors and conquerors. So she read a book on Klingon culture at some point. Given that they were a major galactic power at the time, I'm sure Klingon Studies were a subject of great interest . . . .

Ok, perhaps there is a rational reason for that reference.... or maybe it was a movie mistake... Eh, either way, TWOK is still one of my fave ST movies.

 

[Albertese]

As far as not realizing a planet was missing, I always wondered if someone working on the screenplay got confused with the roman numerals and meant "Ceti Alpha IV" instead of Ceti Alpha VI. "IV" would make more sense as it would make V into the fourth planet after the real fourth planet was gone and the Reliant crew could have simply counted the fourth planet from the star and said, "there it is."

Reliant had the old starcharts that were last updated by the Enterprise during "Space Seed". They were entering the system from the outer planets, and their new scans were undoubtedly affected by the Mutura Nebula, since they can't even tell if a group of humanoids were on the planet or simply a inanimate particle of matter that could be transplanted elsewhere. They'd find Ceti Alpha V and some debris where Ceti Alpha VI should have been (Khan said V's orbit was shifted by the explosion), then a gap, then four more inner planets.

Isn't it also possible that V and VI originally shared an orbit, so how would you know which one is which if one planet is missing? It would also be more likely to be seen as an explosion from Khan's location on V.

There wouldn't be any debris of CA6 15 years after the explosion. If the force was large enough to shatter and disperse a planetary body (i.e. an explosion) then without atmospheric drag, the rubble would proceed eternally into space and would no longer be hanging out in that orbit. Also the two planets could not have been sharing an orbit originally. That would only be possible in one of two scenarios, 1)the two worlds were exactly opposite each other in their orbit, always being separated by the star, in which case thee would be no real path to get debris from one planet to the other since anything on that path would simply fall into the star. And 2) if both planets shared a trojan orbit around a common barycenter like Pluto and Charon do in our own system. This would make more sense as to its destruction effecting CA5, but, then, the two would be close enough on the old Enterprise charts that it would be dreadfully obvious that a planet was missing. So neither one seems likely to me.

--Alex

 

[Tom]

Let's not forget that Kahn had full access tot he Reliants computers since he controled the Captain and the First Officer. So he could have learned of the Klingon poverb there. Also, Spock said they knew exactly where to hit us. The Enterprise had been totally (well almost) redisigned in TMP, so Kahn must have had updated info on the Enterprise that must have come from the Reliant computers. He had 3 days at least, before he got to Regula, to update himself.

 

[Janos]

Let's not forget that Kahn had full access tot he Reliants computers since he controled the Captain and the First Officer. So he could have learned of the Klingon poverb there. Also, Spock said they knew exactly where to hit us. The Enterprise had been totally (well almost) redisigned in TMP, so Kahn must have had updated info on the Enterprise that must have come from the Reliant computers. He had 3 days at least, before he got to Regula, to update himself.

Hmmm. Interesting. Was it established that Khan is a speed reader with a photographic memory? I'm curious if those are some of his "superman" traits. (I know I don't sound serious, but I am.)

 

[gottacook]

Hmmm. Interesting. Was it established that Khan is a speed reader with a photographic memory? I'm curious if those are some of his "superman" traits. (I know I don't sound serious, but I am.)

Yes, in "Space Seed" 15 years earlier, Khan is indeed shown speed-reading from the sick bay monitor.

 

[Timo]

...the old starcharts that were last updated by the Enterprise during "Space Seed".

Or were they? Kirk apparently didn't tell anybody about the marooning of Khan. He might have neglected to file his visit to the Ceti Alpha system in his logs altogether... We know from other episodes that he does take liberties with what he reports and what he doesn't.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No explanation is given that I am aware of as to why Chekov can't scan the life forms on Ceti Alpha V. Perhaps the writers intended the "craylon gas" in its atmosphere to be the masking agent. Perhaps the planet was contaminated by whatever destroyed Ceti Alpha VI. In any case, we just kinda have to "go with the flow" on that one.

I always just thought that those huge sandstorms, plus the gas you mentioned, were masking the sensors.

 

[Tom]

Hmmm. Interesting. Was it established that Khan is a speed reader with a photographic memory? I'm curious if those are some of his "superman" traits. (I know I don't sound serious, but I am.)

Yes, in "Space Seed" 15 years earlier, Khan is indeed shown speed-reading from the sick bay monitor.

And it only took him hours to learn a ton of stuff, In 3 days he could have learned so much more.

I'm guessing Kahn was off of Ceti Alpha Five for 4 days before attacking enterprise. 3 days to get to Regula and one day (or less) to torture the scientists then head out to meet Kirk.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Good thing he didn't also have time to brush up on Tri-D Chess. That could have been the show.

 

[Timo]

Every supervillain has a weakness they want to hide. Too bad Khan didn't have the opportunity to hide his checkers (!) board to conceal his limited skill in combative board games.

I mean, superior intellects in a battle of wills over a game of checkers? That's only half a step above tic-tac-toe in terms of strategic thinking.

Or perhaps it was actually five-dimensional checkers, and Khan's superintellect allowed him to imagine the missing three dimensions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wait... were the Klingons all that secretive in TOS? Watching the show makes it seem to me that the crew were actually pretty familiar with them, as much as any 1960's American navy crew might be familiar with Russian and Soviet culture (this was intentional given that the Klingon Empire was meant to be the analog to the Soviet Union). As far as Marla the historian knowing klingon proverbs, it could be that she happened to know this one, perhaps because it's actually an old Sicilian proverb which the Klingons also use. Perhaps the fact that they independently arrived at the same proverb as a human culture was of interest to her, maybe she was fascinated by parallel developments in alien cultures, which would make her more useful on a starship than a strictly Earth-focused historian.

--Alex

I think someone has confused them with the Romulans. The Klingons were the Federations primary rival and most frequent foe of the Enterprise. In their first appearence they were on the verge of war the Federation.

 

[Timewalker]

No explanation is given that I am aware of as to why Chekov can't scan the life forms on Ceti Alpha V. Perhaps the writers intended the "craylon gas" in its atmosphere to be the masking agent. Perhaps the planet was contaminated by whatever destroyed Ceti Alpha VI. In any case, we just kinda have to "go with the flow" on that one.

At first glance, I totally read that as "crayon gas" and figured it made perfect sense in connection with such a boneheaded mistake...

 

[Captrek]

The Greg Cox novel posits Joachim as the son of Joaquin, and even explains why all the 15 year old "supermen" we see in ST II look like they're people in their 20s and are all blond, Aryan types.

Well novels are not cannon, I try to look at what is in the film and work with that.
Again 18 years between space seed and WOK so he could fit that age range.

Well, if you want to go by "canon," it is stated on-screen twice (once by Khan and once by Kirk) that Kirk had left Khan on Ceti Alpha V 15 years ago, not 18. And I don't really buy that it was 15 Ceti Alphan Years, since Kirk uses the 15 year span when talking to Carol and there would be no reason for him to use anything other than standard years. And it doesn't seem likely that he rounded 18 down to 15, when normally it would be rounded up to 20.

What the heck? Khan tells Terrell, “These men and women swore to live and die at my command 200 years before you were born.”

But the fact remains that we never saw Chekov in "Space Seed." Therefore any mention of him and Khan coming face to face in that episode is purely fannish speculation.

But it's not speculation. khan says that it happened.

That's why I say the TWOK scene is a retcon.

Wouldn't it only be a retcon if TOS had actually stated that Chekov was a brand new arrival, and thus ST II rewrote that fact? "Catspaw" comments on his greenness, but that could be being a green ensign on the bridge, not necessarily a green crewman just arrived on the ship.

According to the star dates given in the episode, Catspaw takes place before Space Seed. Also notable is the fact that Chekov never appears at the navigator station in Catspaw, he just fills in at the scanner in Spock’s absence. Considering that along with the greenness comment, it’s reasonable to speculate that Chekov was a new crew member at the time of Catspaw but hadn’t yet been given the navigator assignment.

 

[Captrek]

And it's sloppy storytelling.

I'm not sure I want to watch movies where I'm spoon fed every detail, with nothing left to discuss afterwards.

We don't need Khan saying why he didn't remove this second glove, either. Or why all his people are blonde. Or why Kirk went back to the Admiralty. Or why Spock became a captain after saying (in TOS) he had no desire to do so. Or where Saavik came from.

Leave those details to the novelizations.

What Spock said in TWOK was that he had no desire to command a starship, not that he had a problem with holding the rank of Captain. He was already a captain when he made that statement, but he only commanded a starship as a teacher on a training voyage.

 

[Therin of Andor]

According to the star dates given in the episode, Catspaw takes place before Space Seed.

Lucky coincidence. Stardates in TOS weren't planned out that carefully.