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enterprise : the romulan war

at the end of last full measure a still discised trip meet a young george kirk jr. on aug.12 2238 now trip is probable in his 80's and with federation tech being what it is then who is to say that a cure fore longjevity has'nt been found then. and I know beagles live at least 14 years old so I know that's not porthors . and if you read the
novelisation of star trek you have a beagle running around the ship.

now we have to wait till november till the second book comes out .
 
Fair enough regarding the bio. I still believe though that it was an obvious attempt by the writers to give the fans an Enterprise shout out. I'm not quite sure why you're so eager to dismiss the notion that it is Jonathon Archer...I've already granted that you could be right that it is someone else, but please, really...do we know anyone else with a damn Beagle? No. It was a "Star Trek" movie that was attempting to make a shout out to a character from another series. Simple as that. If it wasn't meant to Archer then why did they bother in the first place to mention it?
 
at the end of last full measure a still discised trip meet a young george kirk jr. on aug.12 2238 now trip is probable in his 80's and with federation tech being what it is then who is to say that a cure fore longjevity has'nt been found then.

AFAIK, Trip is 120 years old during that bit. Assuming Trip is about 30 during ENT, that means Trip was born in or about 2120's, so he's about 120 during the "Last Full Measure" coda.
 
"Balance of Terror", the first Romulan episode on TOS, canonically established the Earth-Romulan War and the fact that the two sides had never seen each other's face, they just fired at the ships.

ENT, both the show and the novel relaunch just ran with this concept.

And it's important to not forget that Spock's information about the Romulans was just what was publicly known about the Romulans. Especially given the continued Cold War along the Neutral Zone, and the continuing fragilities of the young Federation, there's no reason to believe that the Federation and Starfleet would have revealed everything about the Romulans ("Say, did you know that the Romulans actually are Vulcans with their own distinctive civilization?").

As an idea it's not so out there, the Pacific Theatre of WWII saw several naval battles where the two sides fleets never saw each other, the battle was conducted entirely by aircraft over-the-horizon from the surface fleet. It's a simple jump to extend this concept with space battles.[/QUOTE]
 
I agree with that conscept . genne served in the military did'nt he ?
also after the vulcan/romulan split there communications were probably not up to par
with there cival war and rebuilding . so I am sure they had know Idea were they went after a certin period of time. and the romulan's had a better tech advantage after the war building I don't know how many ship's for there exodus .
 
I agree with that conscept . genne served in the military did'nt he ?
also after the vulcan/romulan split there communications were probably not up to par
with there cival war and rebuilding . so I am sure they had know Idea were they went after a certin period of time. and the romulan's had a better tech advantage after the war building I don't know how many ship's for there exodus .

The chronology seems to suggest that the Romulan generation starships left Vulcan 4th or 5th centuries CE, arriving a century later in the Eisn system, and that thereafter the Vulcan exiles successfully built a distinctive civilization of their own--a little bit of Surak's logic and a little bit of emotion, as per Duane's depiction--this civilization eventually becoming strong, apparently strong enough to fight a war with Vulcan at some point (unless Q's talk of a Vulcan-Romulan war refers to the fighting on Vulcan befpre the ships' departure) and to become expansionist in its own right. By the time of the Romulan War, it took the combined forces of Vulcan, Tellar, Andor, and Earth (with Alpha Centauri) to hold the Romulans off, suggesting that by the 22nd century the Romulans might have been able to overpower Vulcan had they decided and Vulcan been alone.
 
Fair enough regarding the bio. I still believe though that it was an obvious attempt by the writers to give the fans an Enterprise shout out. I'm not quite sure why you're so eager to dismiss the notion that it is Jonathon Archer...I've already granted that you could be right that it is someone else, but please, really...do we know anyone else with a damn Beagle? No. It was a "Star Trek" movie that was attempting to make a shout out to a character from another series. Simple as that. If it wasn't meant to Archer then why did they bother in the first place to mention it?

I understand what both you and Christopher are saying. And, I'm leaning to Christopher's perspective on the reference not being to Jonathon. I do think however the shoutout to fans was deliverate (naturally). I'd only add that the shoutout doesn't need to be to Jonathon Archer, but to the Archer family (it would still have resonance). It shows that his line continues. That's enough, isn't it? Also, in terms of the dog, well I imagine if you grow up with a parent favoring one breed of dog, the kids tend to grow fond of the same breed. Doesn't mean there aren't other dogs at home, but only one prized beagle (especially if its the great-grandmutt of the dog we know and love on ENT). An Easter Egg here for fans with Archer doesn't need to be the "original". Knowing he has descendents can give you a sense that they could pop up elsewhere.
 
Fair enough regarding the bio. I still believe though that it was an obvious attempt by the writers to give the fans an Enterprise shout out.

Yes, that was obviously the intention. I have never disputed that it was the filmmakers' intention. My point is that authorial intentions are not canonical fact. There have been many instances where something that was intended by the makers of one episode or film was contradicted by the makers of a later one. Data was originally intended to have emotions, but Michael Piller retconned that away. The Borg were originally intended to have no interest in people, only technology, but that intention was abandoned. Only what's onscreen counts as "real." And all that was stated onscreen was "Admiral Archer." Appending "Jonathan" to that is a conjecture, not a fact. All I'm saying is that it is incorrect to state it as though it were a fact. But you keep misunderstanding me and assuming I'm saying something more than that.

I'm not quite sure why you're so eager to dismiss the notion that it is Jonathon Archer...

It's not about whether it's Jonathan Archer. It's about not confusing conjecture with fact. Precision is important. Process is important. It doesn't matter what specific topic you're discussing, it is essential to be clear on the difference between what is known and what is merely suspected. That's simply a matter of accuracy, of honesty.

And it's not about "eagerness." It's not about emotion. Too many people think that facts are nothing more than fodder to be twisted to fit their personal biases and agendas. That's bull. Fact and reason should take priority. As I've already explained, logic suggests that it is profoundly improbable that a human of Jonathan Archer's generation would have a life expectancy that great. That is not what I want to believe, that is what is logical based on what we know. Even if I wanted it to be Jonathan Archer, I would still deem it extremely improbable. It would be dishonest to do otherwise.


but please, really...do we know anyone else with a damn Beagle?

Use your imagination. Pet preferences often run in families. All the Bennetts I know are cat people. Although, as it happens, my cousins in Washington also own a beagle. They're pretty common pets, you know.

Again, it's a simple matter of probabilities. It is very improbable that a man born in Jonathan Archer's generation could live to 146. It is not even slightly improbable that a man who loved beagles would have children or grandchildren who loved beagles. Therefore, the latter interpretation is objectively the more likely one. That's got nothing to do with personal preference or "eagerness." It's just math.
 
I think you're over-analyzing their intentions personally. I can imagine just as you do that it was a descendant of Archer's that they were referring to but again based on their intentions I choose to reject that notion. As for his age...we saw an older McCoy in the so-called "prime" universe. This is an alternate reality and we know that Jonathon Archer is an extremely fit person who probably took good care of himself. Again I'm basing my logic on speculation, I realize that. Is it improbable that Archer would live to that age? Of course it is. Yet we don't know what kind of medical technology was available to people in this reality. Anyways I'm gonna disagree with you :)
 
^ It's more likely, IMHO, that McCoy's long lifespan was due to the fact that, as a doctor, he had access to the latest medical technology to keep himself alive.

Archer, on the other hand, lived in the 22nd century, where technology was less advanced, and the human life expectancy may not have been as long anyway.
 
well he also had surak's katra in his head could that have any effect on his ageing ?
and there is no telling what new race's they found after the romulan war to help prolong life . If I remmber right on the season finally they had a ten year space mission? ( out of all the season finales enterprise was probably the worst and voyager's my favorite.)
 
I think you're over-analyzing their intentions personally. I can imagine just as you do that it was a descendant of Archer's that they were referring to but again based on their intentions I choose to reject that notion. As for his age...we saw an older McCoy in the so-called "prime" universe. This is an alternate reality and we know that Jonathon Archer is an extremely fit person who probably took good care of himself. Again I'm basing my logic on speculation, I realize that. Is it improbable that Archer would live to that age? Of course it is. Yet we don't know what kind of medical technology was available to people in this reality. Anyways I'm gonna disagree with you :)

Maybe Archer got displaced in time like Scotty who showed up in TNG. So, maybe it a young Archer b/c he was time displaced? :devil: However, as noted by Christopher and in my post, there are a lot more rational reasons to believe it is NOT Archer. Medical tech, I don't think make sense for the time period, but perhaps time travel might. In the end, its kinda cool we're chatting about this / trying to make it all make sense. Also, what do you mean by alternate reality?
 
The alternate reality that was created when Nero went back in time of course. I apologize for taking the thread off course timothy. I understand what you're all saying about Archer and all of you make good points of course.
 
The alternate reality that was created when Nero went back in time of course. I apologize for taking the thread off course timothy. I understand what you're all saying about Archer and all of you make good points of course.

:cardie: Yeah, I should have known that.

If I understand the dates from Memory Alpha correctly:

2112 - Jonathan Archer is born

2233 - Year Nero enters the past (Archer if alive would be 121 years old)

2258 - Year "Prime" Spock is welcomed by Nero (Archer if alive would be 146 years old)

Here's Memory Alpha's general thoughts on Trek age time spans:

The average Human life span had gradually increased during their history. the average life spans during the 22nd century was about 100 years (ENT: "Observer Effect"). This average age was still roughly the same during the 2250, but had risen to 120 by the mid-24th century.
(citation needededit)
. However, at some point in history the average lifespan for Humans was only 35, and by 1999 it had become higher then a millenium earlyer. (ENT: "Similitude", VOY: "11:59"). Leonard McCoy had by 2364 reached the age of 137. (TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint").

It would seem that the view that the nod was to one of Archer's kids makes sense. And, that a love of beagles was something passed on from father to son/daughter.
 
Ok, back to the ENT lit "Romulan War". :)

I think I read here that the Romulan War was supposed to be 5 years per TOS (I think) and that Humans/Romulans never saw each other during it. Does that mean that S&S is planning 5 books about the Romulan Year? Each to be released over 5 actual years? Or less? Naturally, if successful, they could do various additional "Tales of The Romulan War", but I just don't know how well the ENT books do (I mean this was the shorts of the "modern day" TV trek afterall).
 
Jonathan Archer was the undisputed king of Star Trek time travel and alternate futures. Taking into account what he's been through, it could easily have been him and the same beagle in STXI. Attempting to rationalize a movie packed with batshit crazy instances (Cadet/Captain Kirk? Fluke upon fluke upon fluke? and I say that as a lover of the movie) strikes me as a little silly, anyway.

With all due respect to Mike Sussman, his graphic (that requires HD/freezeframe to see) is nothing more than an easter egg for die-hard fans - and one that got the year of the NX-01's retirement wrong, at that.

All that said, with time travel, Archer could even have had a stint as Scotty's instructor in the 23rd century before becoming Space President in the 22nd, if one really wants to take mental gymnastics to thr extreme - it'd make as much sense as the Temporal Cold War.
 
Jonathan Archer was the undisputed king of Star Trek time travel and alternate futures. Taking into account what he's been through, it could easily have been him and the same beagle in STXI.

The only (I hate saying "only", but eh :shrug:) way I can think of that it could be him would be due to time travel. That's it. Not tech. Not good health. Not anything else. However, it seems unlikely to expect him to live that long without something like time travel to facilitate it. That's why an earlier response of mine on this subject included the below:

Janos said:
Maybe Archer got displaced in time like Scotty who showed up in TNG. So, maybe it a young Archer b/c he was time displaced? :devil: However, as noted by Christopher and in my post, there are a lot more rational reasons to believe it is NOT Archer.

However, we're over-thinking this.

As Sherlock Holmes said: "...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth..."

The simple and most reasonable explanation here is that its a descendent of Jonathan Archer.
 
I think I read here that the Romulan War was supposed to be 5 years per TOS (I think) and that Humans/Romulans never saw each other during it.

TOS never established the duration of the Earth-Romulan War. The Star Trek Chronology by Michael and Denise Okuda conjecturally dated it as 2156-60, ending a year before the founding of the Federation (since it was called the Earth-Romulan War). Had Enterprise continued another season, they would probably have also had the war begin in 2156, judging from the way things seemed to be going, and the books are evidently following that same conjectural timeline, because as a rule, the novels are expected to follow the Okuda Chronology even when its dates are conjectural, except in cases where those conjectural dates have been contradicted by later canon.

But yes, Spock did say in TOS: "Balance of Terror" (the episode that introduced the Romulans) that "no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."


Does that mean that S&S is planning 5 books about the Romulan Year? Each to be released over 5 actual years? Or less?

Well, first off, it was a 4-year war according to the Okudachron. Second, the interval between the publications of the first two Romulan War novels will be two years, from October 2009 to October 2011. Third, we don't yet know how long a timespan To Brave the Storm will cover. Just because the first one spanned a year, that doesn't necessarily mean the second will or that there will be one per year of the war. The overall "master plan" for the series, if one exists, has not been revealed.


Jonathan Archer was the undisputed king of Star Trek time travel and alternate futures. Taking into account what he's been through, it could easily have been him and the same beagle in STXI. Attempting to rationalize a movie packed with batshit crazy instances (Cadet/Captain Kirk? Fluke upon fluke upon fluke? and I say that as a lover of the movie) strikes me as a little silly, anyway.

Whereas my view is that the movie already has enough improbabilities that I'd rather not add another for no reason. I've always found it more desirable to rationalize the improbabilities rather than just throwing up my hands and saying it was useless. And I think that approach has served me pretty well in my career, if I do say so myself.

With all due respect to Mike Sussman, his graphic (that requires HD/freezeframe to see) is nothing more than an easter egg for die-hard fans...

Yes, and that is part of my point. Both Sussman's graphic and the filmmaker's intentions are external, non-canonical sources. And they say contradictory things. So if you're going to treat noncanonical authorial intent as evidence, you can't accept one and ignore the other. Both are equally conjectural. If you reject one as meaningful evidence, you have to reject them both.


All that said, with time travel, Archer could even have had a stint as Scotty's instructor in the 23rd century before becoming Space President in the 22nd, if one really wants to take mental gymnastics to thr extreme - it'd make as much sense as the Temporal Cold War.

There is no reason for unnecessarily adding implausibilities. Why in the hell would that convoluted fairy tale be preferable to simply believing that Archer's descendants like beagles too?
 
Ok, back to the ENT lit "Romulan War". :)

I think I read here that the Romulan War was supposed to be 5 years per TOS (I think) and that Humans/Romulans never saw each other during it. Does that mean that S&S is planning 5 books about the Romulan Year? Each to be released over 5 actual years? Or less? Naturally, if successful, they could do various additional "Tales of The Romulan War", but I just don't know how well the ENT books do (I mean this was the shorts of the "modern day" TV trek afterall).

That seems to be the plan, but plans change. ENT now seems to have one slot per year or so.

BTRW ends in July 2156 in its prologue, the rest of the story being the lead-up to that. The prologue was an explicit cliffhanger.

To Brave the Storm would pick up in July 2156 with Archer asking the Klingons for help after everyone else has become neutral. Earth is feeling very much alone right now.

The end of the war and the Federation founding could be one book or two, it depends on how the story develops. I would hope it would be a major book event, but beyond the one scheduled book for November, everything can change.
 
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