I completely concur.
DS9 Versus: A viewing experient
- Thread starter Sykonee
- Start date
I completely concur.
I love What You Leave Behind. It's true that Sisko vs Dukat was underwhelming, as was a certain lack of Jadzia, and a reuse of battle footage from Sacrifice of Angels.
Screw that though - by the time the final shot of the station rolls around, I'm a gibbering wreck. The rest of the episode does so much right by giving all our characters a great sendoff.
Screw that though - by the time the final shot of the station rolls around, I'm a gibbering wreck. The rest of the episode does so much right by giving all our characters a great sendoff.
It offers far and away the most cast closure of all the series. TOS and its sixth film do a novel job and TNG's "All Good Things" is none too shabby, either, but this one just feels totally right to me.
Doesn't hurt that I feel a lot more closely-connected to them than I do with the others.
Doesn't hurt that I feel a lot more closely-connected to them than I do with the others.
I think that All Good Things is the better finale, that episode captured everything that was great about TNG and it only has one flaw; a logical error concerning anti-time in the future timeline. What You Leave Behind is a great finale too, and when it is good it is better than anything in AGT, but when it was bad it was weaker than anything in AGT and those weaknesses hurt it.
Still, I come back to that final shot. Both shows have similar final shots and I love both of them, but DS9's is better not only on a technical level, but also in that it it's a throwback to The Visitor. WYLB's is also more emotional because AGT's has the Enterprise flying away into the sunset, but in WYLB it feels like you are being torn away from the station, this place that you have come to love. That moment surpasses anything in AGT... but I still think AGT is the better episode.
Still, I come back to that final shot. Both shows have similar final shots and I love both of them, but DS9's is better not only on a technical level, but also in that it it's a throwback to The Visitor. WYLB's is also more emotional because AGT's has the Enterprise flying away into the sunset, but in WYLB it feels like you are being torn away from the station, this place that you have come to love. That moment surpasses anything in AGT... but I still think AGT is the better episode.
Season 7 Tally
Here we go. For the last time.
Versus:
Solo
DS9 - 7
VOY - 7
B5 - 0
Trek Versus
DS9 - 9
VOY - 3
B5 Versus
DS9 - 0
VOY - 0
B5 - 1
Triple Versus
DS9 - 2
VOY - 0
B5 - 3
Yeah, well, there's not much to discuss here, is there. B5 only competed six weeks this season, so most of the battles were between DS9 and VOY. And poor VOY had a difficult time standing toe-to-toe with DS9 when it was in heavy Final Arc mode. Something doesn't quite add up here though. Didn't VOY have a strong overall season, and didn't DS9 suck a whole bunch before the Final Arc? Not at all, as the Yay/Nay Tally shows:
Yay/Nay Tally:
DS9
18:7 - 2.6
VOY
15:10 - 1.5
B5
5:2 - 2.5
Again, it's almost unfair to include B5 here since it had so few showings, but it's actually a reasonable ratio considering what aired, despite the small dip. VOY, however, took quite a tumble, losing nearly a full point from last season. DS9, on the other hand, actually saw an uptick in quality over S6, which is surprising considering S7's reputation. Well, let's analyze this.
1. All that Dukat/Pagh Wraith stuff.
Aside from the Final Arc, there was only one episode dedicated to it, which was poor (Covenant). True, it defanged the Dukat we enjoyed from S5 and the Occupation Arc, but that's not enough to drag a whole season down, and the material with Winn was quite good (despite a tacked-on finish).
2. Too much Ezri.
There was that four-episode period in the winter where she became far too prevalent, but it also included Paper Moon and Field Of Fire, two good episodes. So this isn't as bad as some make it out to be either.
3. Inconsequential Fluff Episodes.
Six episodes by my count fall into this category. Can't deny those, and, again, a lot of them came in bunches to make room for the Final Arc, so they leave more of a negative impression (unlike in VOY's case, which spread many of them across their season).
4. This bit I stole from RedLetterMedia.
So DS9 wins its final season. I can't say it was a hard-fought victory though, as its main competitor retired early, and its other competitor squandered its opportunities (seriously, that winter period was just atrocious! If you look at the ratings charts here, you'll notice VOY's last big dive came about then).
What DS9 did do, though, was go out with dignity and pride. Rather than coasting to the finish, the show pulled itself up and finished strong. Perhaps not as strong as when it was at its peak, but then few veterans ever can accomplish such a feat.
Season Winner
DS9
Next:
Thread Recap
Here we go. For the last time.
Versus:
Solo
DS9 - 7
VOY - 7
B5 - 0
Trek Versus
DS9 - 9
VOY - 3
B5 Versus
DS9 - 0
VOY - 0
B5 - 1
Triple Versus
DS9 - 2
VOY - 0
B5 - 3
Yeah, well, there's not much to discuss here, is there. B5 only competed six weeks this season, so most of the battles were between DS9 and VOY. And poor VOY had a difficult time standing toe-to-toe with DS9 when it was in heavy Final Arc mode. Something doesn't quite add up here though. Didn't VOY have a strong overall season, and didn't DS9 suck a whole bunch before the Final Arc? Not at all, as the Yay/Nay Tally shows:
Yay/Nay Tally:
DS9
18:7 - 2.6
VOY
15:10 - 1.5
B5
5:2 - 2.5
Again, it's almost unfair to include B5 here since it had so few showings, but it's actually a reasonable ratio considering what aired, despite the small dip. VOY, however, took quite a tumble, losing nearly a full point from last season. DS9, on the other hand, actually saw an uptick in quality over S6, which is surprising considering S7's reputation. Well, let's analyze this.
1. All that Dukat/Pagh Wraith stuff.
Aside from the Final Arc, there was only one episode dedicated to it, which was poor (Covenant). True, it defanged the Dukat we enjoyed from S5 and the Occupation Arc, but that's not enough to drag a whole season down, and the material with Winn was quite good (despite a tacked-on finish).
2. Too much Ezri.
There was that four-episode period in the winter where she became far too prevalent, but it also included Paper Moon and Field Of Fire, two good episodes. So this isn't as bad as some make it out to be either.
3. Inconsequential Fluff Episodes.
Six episodes by my count fall into this category. Can't deny those, and, again, a lot of them came in bunches to make room for the Final Arc, so they leave more of a negative impression (unlike in VOY's case, which spread many of them across their season).
4. This bit I stole from RedLetterMedia.
So DS9 wins its final season. I can't say it was a hard-fought victory though, as its main competitor retired early, and its other competitor squandered its opportunities (seriously, that winter period was just atrocious! If you look at the ratings charts here, you'll notice VOY's last big dive came about then).
What DS9 did do, though, was go out with dignity and pride. Rather than coasting to the finish, the show pulled itself up and finished strong. Perhaps not as strong as when it was at its peak, but then few veterans ever can accomplish such a feat.
Season Winner
DS9
Next:
Thread Recap
Awesome, Sykonee. I've been mostly a lurker (in the internet sense, not the B5 sense...), but I've really enjoyed the thread.
I'm not really surprised DS9 beat Voyager by so much here - my recollection of Voyager's fifth season is that overall it was pretty boring. It had its moments (Latent Image and Equinox are superb), but in general I found it a drag to sit through. By contrast, I found DS9's seventh season to be one of the show's most enjoyable years, in spite of its many flaws. It managed to rekindle my excitement about the Dominion plotline, which had been flagging for much of the sixth season.
Looking at the shows like this has somewhat raised my opinion of B5's last season - watching the show, it was a bit of a disappointment in some ways after the preceding years, but comparing it to the Trek that was on at the same time, it actually holds its own quite well. I guess really it was only the first half of the season that was weak - overall the second half was probably comparable to the middle seasons.
Looking at the shows like this has somewhat raised my opinion of B5's last season - watching the show, it was a bit of a disappointment in some ways after the preceding years, but comparing it to the Trek that was on at the same time, it actually holds its own quite well. I guess really it was only the first half of the season that was weak - overall the second half was probably comparable to the middle seasons.
DS9's seventh season is my favorite season of Trek despite its mixed reputation, so I'm just happy to be here.
Thread Recap:
(note: this may take more than one post...)
Can you believe I started this nearly two years ago? I sure can't. I thought I'd have wrapped this up in less than a year. I mean, a rewatch of a series typically only lasts a few months, maybe half-a-year with tardiness. Oh wait, that's a series, not what I did. What did I watch, then? Let's tally it up:
DS9: 7 Seasons
B5: 5 Seasons + assorted movies
VOY: 5 Seasons
TNG: 1.5 Seasons
Total Hours: A lot!
Think of all that's happened in that time:
-A new Star Trek movie came out.
-RedLetterMedia became an overnight sensation.
-Godben nearly finished 3 Watch Threads.
-I moved to a new apartment.
-At least 4 other DS9 Watch Threads crumbled.
-Duke Nukem Forever nearly got released.
So, after all the comparisons, arguing, analyzing, bickering, dry wit, dodgy wrestling analogies, pounding grindstones, and burnt-out eyes, what have we learned? Which was the better show, DS9 or B5? Was VOY as bad as its reputation was, or was it just jealous propaganda from the other shows? And were they all just riding the coattails of TNG after all? Well, let's get to some stats, shall we!
First, who won each Season (specifically DS9's Seasons of airtime):
Season 1
TNG
Season 2
DS9
Season 3
B5
Season 4
B5
Season 5
DS9
Season 6
B5
Season 7
DS9
Oh heck, that's solves nothing at all. Sure, B5 technically may have won more seasons when the two shows were both directly competing against each other, but it also was on for 6 of DS9's seasons, so you can legitimately say it was a tie between them. TNG, meanwhile, takes the tie-breaker in the first season, and with only half a season's worth of episodes at that!
Looks like I'll have to break out some advanced stats to settle this, but it's late and I want to sleep. I'll just leave this post with a teaser: the Final Yay/Nay Tally will leave you stunned.
(note: this may take more than one post...)
Can you believe I started this nearly two years ago? I sure can't. I thought I'd have wrapped this up in less than a year. I mean, a rewatch of a series typically only lasts a few months, maybe half-a-year with tardiness. Oh wait, that's a series, not what I did. What did I watch, then? Let's tally it up:
DS9: 7 Seasons
B5: 5 Seasons + assorted movies
VOY: 5 Seasons
TNG: 1.5 Seasons
Total Hours: A lot!
Think of all that's happened in that time:
-A new Star Trek movie came out.
-RedLetterMedia became an overnight sensation.
-Godben nearly finished 3 Watch Threads.
-I moved to a new apartment.
-At least 4 other DS9 Watch Threads crumbled.
-Duke Nukem Forever nearly got released.
So, after all the comparisons, arguing, analyzing, bickering, dry wit, dodgy wrestling analogies, pounding grindstones, and burnt-out eyes, what have we learned? Which was the better show, DS9 or B5? Was VOY as bad as its reputation was, or was it just jealous propaganda from the other shows? And were they all just riding the coattails of TNG after all? Well, let's get to some stats, shall we!
First, who won each Season (specifically DS9's Seasons of airtime):
Season 1
TNG
Season 2
DS9
Season 3
B5
Season 4
B5
Season 5
DS9
Season 6
B5
Season 7
DS9
Oh heck, that's solves nothing at all. Sure, B5 technically may have won more seasons when the two shows were both directly competing against each other, but it also was on for 6 of DS9's seasons, so you can legitimately say it was a tie between them. TNG, meanwhile, takes the tie-breaker in the first season, and with only half a season's worth of episodes at that!
Looks like I'll have to break out some advanced stats to settle this, but it's late and I want to sleep. I'll just leave this post with a teaser: the Final Yay/Nay Tally will leave you stunned.
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Jesus!I had better get back to my B5 reviews, otherwise Duke Nukem Forever will come out before I finish, and that would be embarrassing. Time to start pounding that grindstone, I suppose.
Yeah, hurry the heck up!
As for those folks whose DS9 review threads crumbled... woe to them, but I've got nothing to do with that!
...
I can't believe this thread has been going on for two years.
I'd like to think I accomlished something in that time. Breaking my hand seems to be the only thing I can think of.
I'd like to think I accomlished something in that time. Breaking my hand seems to be the only thing I can think of.
Okay, here's the totals of all the actual Versus stats:
Solo:
DS9 - 38
TNG - 9
VOY - 29
B5 - 15 (excluding summer weeks)
Don't be surprised by the number of solo weeks TNG had. Remember, TNG and DS9 flip-flopped weeks in Season 1 often, inflating those stats. Also, DS9 usually got June all to itself, plus a couple Septembers too. B5 never got much solo time, and its number probably would have been even lower had it not been TNT's NBA Playoff schedule meddling. VOY? Yeah, she got a lot of Septembers to herself.
Trek VS Trek:
DS9 - 28
TNG - 8
VOY - 12
Wow. DS9 kicked the other two's asses, didn't it. I think most of those TNG wins came from its S6. VOY did alright with about 25% of the wins, but it never directly competed against TNG. Hm, kinda makes you wonder how that might have turned out.
B5 VS:
DS9 - 8
TNG - 1
VOY - 1
B5 - 17
B5, meanwhile, clobbered any single Trek that tried to take it on, winning 63% of the time. Mind, it's not like that happened often, and these stats don't reveal which Trek it was competing against at any point. For all we know, those wins all came at the hands of S7 TNG or S2 VOY.
Triple VS:
DS9 - 26
TNG - 2
VOY - 9
B5 - 27
Ah, now here's the meaty one, where all three shows that were on the air would take on each other. I somehow thought there would have been more Weeks for this. TNG getting clobbered isn't much of a surprise since it only had about half-a-season to compete with and it was the back-end of its awful S7. VOY could have done better though. 14% wins with roughly four Seasons of competition ain't gonna cut it in this league.
But man, look at DS9 and B5, eh? Practically neck-to-neck there, with B5 just squeaking out the edge. I'm really surprised by that since B5 totally dominated this category in Season 4. It's a credit to DS9 that it managed to come from behind and nearly tie the wins up, especially considering B5's S4 was right around the corner.
So 'statistically', it looks like B5 has the edge here. But what about on an episode-to-episode basis? Is there any clear winner in this category? Tune in next time, when the Final Yay/Nay Tally is revealed!
Solo:
DS9 - 38
TNG - 9
VOY - 29
B5 - 15 (excluding summer weeks)
Don't be surprised by the number of solo weeks TNG had. Remember, TNG and DS9 flip-flopped weeks in Season 1 often, inflating those stats. Also, DS9 usually got June all to itself, plus a couple Septembers too. B5 never got much solo time, and its number probably would have been even lower had it not been TNT's NBA Playoff schedule meddling. VOY? Yeah, she got a lot of Septembers to herself.
Trek VS Trek:
DS9 - 28
TNG - 8
VOY - 12
Wow. DS9 kicked the other two's asses, didn't it. I think most of those TNG wins came from its S6. VOY did alright with about 25% of the wins, but it never directly competed against TNG. Hm, kinda makes you wonder how that might have turned out.
B5 VS:
DS9 - 8
TNG - 1
VOY - 1
B5 - 17
B5, meanwhile, clobbered any single Trek that tried to take it on, winning 63% of the time. Mind, it's not like that happened often, and these stats don't reveal which Trek it was competing against at any point. For all we know, those wins all came at the hands of S7 TNG or S2 VOY.
Triple VS:
DS9 - 26
TNG - 2
VOY - 9
B5 - 27
Ah, now here's the meaty one, where all three shows that were on the air would take on each other. I somehow thought there would have been more Weeks for this. TNG getting clobbered isn't much of a surprise since it only had about half-a-season to compete with and it was the back-end of its awful S7. VOY could have done better though. 14% wins with roughly four Seasons of competition ain't gonna cut it in this league.
But man, look at DS9 and B5, eh? Practically neck-to-neck there, with B5 just squeaking out the edge. I'm really surprised by that since B5 totally dominated this category in Season 4. It's a credit to DS9 that it managed to come from behind and nearly tie the wins up, especially considering B5's S4 was right around the corner.
So 'statistically', it looks like B5 has the edge here. But what about on an episode-to-episode basis? Is there any clear winner in this category? Tune in next time, when the Final Yay/Nay Tally is revealed!
Yay!
Nay!
(Not really)
(Not really
)
Just as a refresher, the Yay/Nay Tally is essentially a good-vs-bad episode ratio within each series (or more specifically above-average versus below average). Earning a score of 1 means for every good episode in a season, there was a bad episode. In this totally subjective manner, I determined each series' worth.
All-Time High:
DS9 - 4.2 (S5)
All-Time Low:
TNG - 0.67 (S7)
Final Tally:
DS9
121:52 = 2.33
TNG
21:19 = 1.11
VOY
65:51 = 1.28
B5
75:32 = 2.34
There you go, VOY fans! You can legitimately say that your show's first five seasons was overall better than TNG's last one-and-a-half.
But... holy SHIT! DS9 and B5. I'm stunned, really I am. When I started this, there's no way I'd have predicted B5 would edge DS9 out by a mere 0.01. Er, mostly because when I started this thread, I hadn't even considered a Yay/Nay Tally, but that's beside the point. Maybe one or the other would have a clearer advantage, but I guess not. Anyway you cut it, these two shows were about as equally matched as any competitor.
In conclusion, who is the ultimate winner? Why, the fans of course! What, what!? Oh, don't give me that look, you know it's true. Whether it was intentional or not, it cannot be denied DS9 and B5 had a continuous one-upmanship going on between the two. Whenever one show would raise the bar, the other would come back with something bigger and bolder. Then, the other would return fire with new tricks. And so on and so on throughout their runs. It makes for thrilling television, and helped bring sci-fi to creative heights when all three (yes, even VOY) were at their peaks. We may never see another era like it in sci-fi again.
Thread Winner
The Audience
All-Time High:
DS9 - 4.2 (S5)
All-Time Low:
TNG - 0.67 (S7)
Final Tally:
DS9
121:52 = 2.33
TNG
21:19 = 1.11
VOY
65:51 = 1.28
B5
75:32 = 2.34
There you go, VOY fans! You can legitimately say that your show's first five seasons was overall better than TNG's last one-and-a-half.
But... holy SHIT! DS9 and B5. I'm stunned, really I am. When I started this, there's no way I'd have predicted B5 would edge DS9 out by a mere 0.01. Er, mostly because when I started this thread, I hadn't even considered a Yay/Nay Tally, but that's beside the point. Maybe one or the other would have a clearer advantage, but I guess not. Anyway you cut it, these two shows were about as equally matched as any competitor.
In conclusion, who is the ultimate winner? Why, the fans of course! What, what!? Oh, don't give me that look, you know it's true. Whether it was intentional or not, it cannot be denied DS9 and B5 had a continuous one-upmanship going on between the two. Whenever one show would raise the bar, the other would come back with something bigger and bolder. Then, the other would return fire with new tricks. And so on and so on throughout their runs. It makes for thrilling television, and helped bring sci-fi to creative heights when all three (yes, even VOY) were at their peaks. We may never see another era like it in sci-fi again.
Thread Winner
The Audience
Where's my prize? 
But I agree with the analysis. We were much better off having B5 and DS9, and even VOY to some extent. Those two are some of my favourtie series, so they certainly didn't lose anything airing alongside each other.
But I agree with the analysis. We were much better off having B5 and DS9, and even VOY to some extent. Those two are some of my favourtie series, so they certainly didn't lose anything airing alongside each other.
I'm gonna miss this thread, Sykonee. You should continue with the statistical analyses until there's nothing left to analyze so the thread continues a little while longer.
I recommend comparing the four shows based on their chief medical officers, complete with pie charts concerning how often they made us laugh.
I recommend comparing the four shows based on their chief medical officers, complete with pie charts concerning how often they made us laugh.
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